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Old 05-15-2019, 05:12 PM   #21
Anthony
 
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Default Re: What are the senses of a wolf image or illusion?

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Originally Posted by FireHorse View Post
But by contrast, I think an Illusion ought to be like #1 ó because it is (to at least some extent) not just a product of the wizard's spell, but of the observers' own minds.
That argues for (4) the illusion can see what observers think it should be able to see.
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Old 05-15-2019, 05:48 PM   #22
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Default Re: What are the senses of a wolf image or illusion?

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That argues for (4) the illusion can see what observers think it should be able to see.
Sort of, but that's functionally identical to having its own senses. It would not, for example, mean that the Illusion can "see" the party's Thief pal, hiding behind the curtain, just because the party knows he's hiding there.
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Old 05-15-2019, 06:00 PM   #23
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Default Re: What are the senses of a wolf image or illusion?

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Sort of, but that's functionally identical to having its own senses.
No, it has its own set of anomalies like an illusion being unable to see someone who didn't know it was there (I would avoid this version, it's a hassle).
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Old 05-16-2019, 02:24 AM   #24
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Default Re: What are the senses of a wolf image or illusion?

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To answer your question, we played it for about 40 years where you could use the illusion to scout ahead.

But... this discussion has convinced me we should change.



Well that's an approach, just kind of go with snap judgements.



You're right, it does sound hostile, even though that's unintended. Perceived hostility could put off new gamers more than polite and sincere discussion about little corners of the game rules.
You're offended, then, I take it?
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Old 05-16-2019, 02:41 AM   #25
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Default Re: What are the senses of a wolf image or illusion?

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That argues for (4) the illusion can see what observers think it should be able to see.
I like this. First, It means it is easy for an illusion to behave like it does have its own senses on the battle map. So itís easy to play and practical. The illusion can enter and attack hexes that the wizard canít see, but other figures know about.

Second, it means that the illusion is still a mental phenomenon of the observers, which I happen to like. It means the beliefs of the observers all contribute to the power of the illusion.
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Old 05-16-2019, 05:23 AM   #26
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Default Re: What are the senses of a wolf image or illusion?

But then the Question arises: CAN the Illusion see (or otherwise sense) the Thief hiding behind the curtain, based on the other observers' knowledge of his presence? What if there are no others, and the Thief is alone (but still hidden)?
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Old 05-16-2019, 07:01 AM   #27
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Default Re: What are the senses of a wolf image or illusion?

Short answer -- I've typed and deleted a bunch of answers, really not sure!

Let's go with the idea that the illusion reflects the beliefs of the observers. If the observers think the illusion should know about something, then the illusion would act in that way, and otherwise not.

Scenario 1. Two figures: (1) a wizard creating a wolf illusion; (2) a thief who, unknown to the wizard, is hidden behind the curtain. The thief can see the wizard and the illusion. No one in this case has a belief that the wolf should see the thief, and so the illusion doesn't.

Scenario 2. Same two figures and conditions, but this time the illusion is of a bloodhound. The thief might believe the bloodhound COULD sniff out her presence. Maybe it does...?

Scenario 3. Same as scenario 1, but the wizard directs the wolf to poke its head behind the curtain. The thief now believes that the wolf can see her, and so it does.

Scenario 4. Similar to scenario 3, except this time, for whatever reason, the thief can't sense the wizard. Now the thief has no belief for or against the illusion, and the thief's beliefs aren't part of the illusion's "knot of force". In this case the illusion can't take into account the thief's beliefs. This is like sending an illusory bird over the castle wall. The people behind the wall have no beliefs about the illusion and so the illusion doesn't see behind the wall.
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Old 05-16-2019, 01:07 PM   #28
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Default Re: What are the senses of a wolf image or illusion?

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I like this.
It makes a certain amount of sense, but it's a gigantic pain to adjudicate unless you don't make illusions have shared visibility (i.e. different observers see different behavior from the same illusion. The thief behind the curtain sees the dog bark at him, the wizard doesn't...), so I would avoid it.
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Old 05-16-2019, 01:32 PM   #29
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Default Re: What are the senses of a wolf image or illusion?

If the illusion can see what observers believe it can see, then to almost all intents and purposes, in a typical battle the illusion can behave like it has its own senses. Which is easy.

Worrying about who knows what about whom would apply for some out-of-combat stuff only.
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Old 05-16-2019, 01:34 PM   #30
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Default Re: What are the senses of a wolf image or illusion?

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If the illusion can see what observers believe it can see, then to almost all intents and purposes, in a typical battle the illusion can behave like it has its own senses. Which is easy.
If observer A thinks the illusion can see something, and observer B thinks the illusion cannot, which wins?
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