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Old 02-25-2016, 06:17 PM   #1
JackOfClubs
 
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Default Definition of 'disadvantage'

Long story short: me and GM got struck into argument about interpreting definition of 'Disadvantage'. He rightfully says that limit on disadvantages includes
Quote:
anything with a negative cost, including low attributes, reduced social status, and all the specific disabilities listed in Chapter 3. (B11)
and therefore any decreased attributes should count towards disadvantage limit of campaign. I have to agree with that because it's written in corresponding section, even if I think it makes no sense.
But I was confused even more when I've been told that quirks counts towards that limit too, for the same reason: they have negative cost!

Personally, I feel it realistic to increase one attribute at the expense of another: it assumes that character specialized by favoring one type of activity over the other, for example reading instead of working off or vice versa. In my previous games, GMs not accounted lowered stats as disadvantages, but counted just net worth of ajusted stats: ST11 DX12 IQ9 HT10 is 30pts, not 50/-20. I understand it may lead to minmaxing, but aren't that represents realistic specialization? Big guys tend to be dumber, smart guys often weaker, you know.
And quirks... I've threated them as a legal way to squeeze that extra point or two by adding some flavor to PC's personality. Now I see them as -1 points in a world of -5, -10, -15, -20 and even -25 disadvantages, but i have -25 limit, so there's just no room for those poor little -1s. I feel pity, but they have to wait for another game. Goodbye, little quirks, I'll miss you.

So I've got curious: what do you count as a disadvantage in terms of limiting its cost? Is there any clarifications I can use to change my GM's mind on that topic?

Last edited by JackOfClubs; 02-25-2016 at 06:22 PM.
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Old 02-25-2016, 06:23 PM   #2
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Default Re: Definition of 'disadvantage'

Anything with a negative cost is a disadvantage. This includes but is not limited to:
  • Lowered attributes (e.g., IQ 8)
  • Lowered secondary characteristics (e.g., Per 11 if you have IQ 13)
  • Anything in the Disadvantages chapter (e.g., Alcoholism)
  • Removing or reducing something you start with for free (e.g., starting with your native Language at Accented rather than Native fluency)
  • The net value of any racial template with a negative cost
  • Quirks
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Old 02-25-2016, 06:26 PM   #3
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Default Re: Definition of 'disadvantage'

Negative attributes are a perfectly reasonable disadvantage. I've played a wizard with a lowered Per (IQ 12, Per 9), and it definitely came up in play as much as his cowardice or curiosity. People with low base stats have low defaults, which means failing at what should be simple tasks.

For quirks, they should probably be the first -5 points you pick up if you are planning to take disadvantages at all. In effect they are such minor traits that it's up to the player to RP them, and they can be ignored in times of great danger. Most of them are things you do anyway, and they will almost never cost your character their life.

Also note that as point totals increase, taking disadvantages become less and less advantageous because they represent a smaller total of your point pool, but restrict your actions just as often. A "min-max"d character would buy off disadvantages as soon as possible so that they don't end up getting themselves or others killed/hurt by them. This is where quirks are also useful, buy your serious disadvantages down to quirk level to keep the flavor, but loose the serious repercussions.
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Old 02-25-2016, 06:39 PM   #4
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Default Re: Definition of 'disadvantage'

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Originally Posted by JackOfClubs View Post
So I've got curious: what do you count as a disadvantage in terms of limiting its cost? Is there any clarifications I can use to change my GM's mind on that topic?
What PK said.


Also I would totally take those Quirks. 20 points in 'real' disads and 5 points in Quirks.
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Old 02-25-2016, 08:05 PM   #5
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Default Re: Definition of 'disadvantage'

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Originally Posted by PK View Post
Anything with a negative cost is a disadvantage. This includes but is not limited to:
  • Lowered attributes (e.g., IQ 8)
  • Lowered secondary characteristics (e.g., Per 11 if you have IQ 13)
  • Anything in the Disadvantages chapter (e.g., Alcoholism)
  • Removing or reducing something you start with for free (e.g., starting with your native Language at Accented rather than Native fluency)
  • The net value of any racial template with a negative cost
  • Quirks
(a) If a trait has a negative cost, but is included in a racial template, it doesn't count. Only the net negative cost of a racial template counts. This is an exception to "anything with a negative cost is a disadvantage."

(b) My own feeling is that even though quirks count as disadvantages, it's reasonable not to count them toward the limit. The purpose of quirks is to achieve extra characterization and make characters more entertaining or memorable. If you have a disadvantage limit of N, and your negatively valued traits add up to N-3, you can only take three quirks, not five; if they come to N, you don't get any quirks. That kind of defeats the purpose. I can see a case for a house rule that lets everyone take up to five quirks, even if they're full up on "disadvantages" broadly defined.
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Old 02-25-2016, 09:02 PM   #6
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Default Re: Definition of 'disadvantage'

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
(b) My own feeling is that even though quirks count as disadvantages, it's reasonable not to count them toward the limit.
That's the way I do it, but it's a deliberate house rule.

I also like to use a disadvantage limit of 25+one (i.e., 25 points, plus one disadvantage of any value).
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Old 02-25-2016, 09:15 PM   #7
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Default Re: Definition of 'disadvantage'

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
(b) My own feeling is that even though quirks count as disadvantages, it's reasonable not to count them toward the limit. The purpose of quirks is to achieve extra characterization and make characters more entertaining or memorable. If you have a disadvantage limit of N, and your negatively valued traits add up to N-3, you can only take three quirks, not five; if they come to N, you don't get any quirks. That kind of defeats the purpose. I can see a case for a house rule that lets everyone take up to five quirks, even if they're full up on "disadvantages" broadly defined.
That's why when I list character point limits in my campiagn syllabus I always list it like so: "X points, up to Y Disads and extra 5 Quirks".

Thus a '250 point' campaign is actually 255 points in my games. If they want more than 5 Quirks, those come out of the Disad limit and must be approved (after so many Quirks just tend to end up as 'free points').
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Old 02-25-2016, 09:21 PM   #8
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Default Re: Definition of 'disadvantage'

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Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
That's the way I do it, but it's a deliberate house rule
In some cases it's nay so much a house rule as a series switch. For instance DF explicitly calls out that 5 points in Quirks should allowed above and beyond the standard 50 points allowed in Disads.
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Old 02-25-2016, 09:48 PM   #9
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Default Re: Definition of 'disadvantage'

It is stupid and nonsensical, but RAW lists super smart but average perception as a disadvantage. But that's easily house ruled away.
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Old 02-25-2016, 10:45 PM   #10
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Default Re: Definition of 'disadvantage'

I used to have quirks as a separate total back in 3e days. Personally I think that works better.

I prefer simplicity, so my policy with 4e is, if it specifically listed as a disadvantage in the disadvantage section of the Rulebook then it is a disadvantage otherwise it doesn't count. I don't care if players min/max their attributes, after years of d20 I'm used to it.
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