Seraph Resonance

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by JCD

I can name a half dozen politicians whom it has not harmed in any measurable degree.

Do you have a citation? Because I think you'll find that they probably both a) make a lot more factual statements than you think, and b) have probably been at least accused of not being truthful in the past. Hard to prove a negative, of course, but I'm willing to say that I doubt that someone who develops a reputation for being evasive hasn't been "measurably" harmed in a political career.

Originally Posted by JCD

I think it's a bad example, the motive has nothing to do with a bribery question, and the Superior is a 'freebie' to the players.

I don't see how. If his superior told him to offer/take the bribe, and his major concern is to protect that superior, then his motivation for lying is going to be "protect my superior". Sure, sometimes it will be "protect my own hide", but you can't use that all the time.

Originally Posted by JCD

"Who is this reporter? Does she have an agenda? Why is she throwing allegations like that around? Is she angling to get hit with a libel suit? Sounds like a political operative operating as a reporter."

Every time he spouts off like that, he's going to lose a bit more. Particularly among the reporters, who probably don't like the idea of one of their own being accused of libel for asking a question. A few of those, and the good Senator can probably start looking at a much more hostile audience for his press conferences, and the Seraph won't even have to ask the questions herself, just listen to his responses as others ask them.

Originally Posted by JCD

Seraphs hate pop culture and the media. Being stuck inside of it would be a hard assignment for a Seraph.

Once again, though, these are merely suggested trends rather than set-in-stone character traits. I imagine many Seraphim of Marc and Eli are actually pretty comfortable with mass media. And in any case, if a Seraph has to be in the business, "TV Interviewer" sounds like pretty much the perfect Role: they don't have to deal with the distribution end, or worry about creating "lies everyone agrees to believe" (i.e, fiction), and best of all, their whole job is to find the truth.

Originally Posted by JCD

I am frankly AGOG at the idea of a Seraph as a political figure!

You'd have to have a solid Role, so that the Seraph can say "I'm Robert Paulson, and I'm running for office" without wincing, but I can definitely see it. They probably wouldn't get to very high office, unfortunately, since a mixture of truth and lies is pretty necessary to success in politics. But I could definitely see them as one of those representatives who gets a reputation for plain speaking and bluff honesty, and whose constituents keep electing them because they respect the honesty.

Originally Posted by JCD

So, with that being said, a transcript is something typed up by someone else. They are 'the speaker' Not Senator Fishback.

I think you're unfairly nerfing the resonances here. If it doesn't work on a transcript, what does it work on? Will you disallow it working on a published book? After all, the book wasn't hand-written by the author, it was gone over by an editor, typeset by a printer, and it wasn't even printed by a human, but a machine! Or what about a recorded TV segment? A cameraman recorded it, people in the studio edited for sound and cut stuff for length, and so on.
Basically, if we follow your line of reasoning, anything short of a handwritten letter or a video recording the subject took themselves becomes ineligible, which I very much doubt is the intent. I think that, as long as the person doing the recording was attempting to faithfully reproduce the speaker's words, a Seraph should be able to resonate the speaker, not the recorder.
If a recorder wasn't faithfully reproducing a speaker, a Seraph would detect the recording as a whole as a lie, and a CD 2 would allow the Seraph to start filtering out the most egregiously distorted information, and finding the truthfully reported sections, which could then be resonated to determine what the speaker was saying.

Originally Posted by JCD

But say you do not buy that argument. What exactly is the Seraph going to get with all those transcripts? Questions about demons are rather rare.

Questions about demons are hardly the only things a Seraph will be looking for. Say the team of angels is looking for evidence linking the Senator to a corrupt construction company. The Seraph could look over his expense accounts, for example, and discover that 50% of the "advertising" line is a lie, told to cover up meals with various firms he was trying to connect to the construction firm, and that a good deal of the "campaign contributions" are, in fact, bribes from the same firm. That's a huge amount of info which would otherwise have to be tediously run down, tenuously confirmed, suspected but never proven, etc. It probably took hours, at worst, instead of days or weeks. And it was done from the security of the Seraph's home base, without giving away anything to anyone besides whoever they got the records from.

Originally Posted by JCD

She will be wading through a cesspool of lies, innuendo, partial truths, dubious and illegal motives, horrifying distortions and that is the humans!

All of which she can filter into useful information. Again, you can't use "Seraphs don't like doing this" as a balance argument, because there are no mechanical constraints on their behavior that prevents this. The descriptions in the In Nomine books about how Seraphs don't like lies are suggestions, and the books themselves often present counterexamples who can get along with human culture just fine. Heck, one of the sample angels in the Liber Servitorum is Libnah, a Seraph of Creation in service to Jordi with a Role as an investigative reporter. The opening vignette has him asking pretty much the exact kind of questions I'm talking about: "Is your company dumping toxic waste?", and when the answer is no, "Not even at Pine Glades?", which is then used as reason to go to Pine Glades.

Originally Posted by JCD

"I don't want them to guess my involvement?" (with what?)

I'd cry foul if you gave me this as a motivation. That's playing semantic games, which the corebook specifically warns GMs not to do. It's only a step above saying "Their motivation for lying to you is 'I don't want them to learn the truth'".

Originally Posted by JCD

Since a Seraph has to tell the truth or suffer dissonance, I see their role as being a bit more limited then you do.

Senator Fishback: "Excuse me young lady. Who exactly do you work for?"

This is a common question of a politico for a reporter. Find out what paper is being.

Sidney: "It doesn't matter."

Or "The New York Times". Seraphs are explicitly allowed to give Role details for questions like these, because as far as the Symphony is concerned, a celestial's Role is a real person.

Originally Posted by JCD

This sort of seemed to be your default assumption for questioning.

I'm assuming that a smart player will be able to figure out ways to ask questions and demand factual responses. It doesn't have to involve waterboarding, but a Seraph can have a role as an investigative journalist, a police officer, a prosecuting attorney, and so forth, or they can be in a position to listen to any of the aforementioned people do their jobs, or simply, as I've pointed out, regularly scan records of factual things people have said in the past.

As an additional note about scanning recordings, bear in mind that an optimized Seraph can actually have a target number above 12 for their resonance, and thus reliably guarantee large CDs when listening live, and allow for high CDs even on recorded media. A Seraph of Dominic adds their Celestial Forces to their Perception for resonance rolls. A starting character could have 6 Celestial Forces and 12 Perception, meaning that every in-person resonance roll is CD 6, and they'd never have lower than a CD 4 for recorded media.

[JCD]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

I doubt that someone who develops a reputation for being evasive hasn't been "measurably" harmed in a political career.

(Define 'is')

Did you really want to argue politics? Most political statements are opinion. Is Prop 8 the destruction of families or a grievious infringement of rights? Depends on who you ask.

I don't see how. If his superior told him to offer/take the bribe, and his major concern is to protect that superior, then his motivation for lying is going to be "protect my superior".

The very term 'Superior' is leading. Boss is better. And it's hard to see how a DP is threatend by not taking a bribe.

Every time he spouts off like that, he's going to lose a bit more. Particularly among the reporters, who probably don't like the idea of one of their own being accused of libel for asking a question.

I mistakenly put quotes around that phrase. A reporter spouting what seems to be baseless accusations will make people wonder at her motives as well (see hatchet job). Yes, a question from Helen Thomas would be more credible then one from Milo Bloom. But to have that respect, the Seraph needs a deep role. How common is that? You are arguing at the margins.

Once again, though, these are merely suggested trends rather than set-in-stone character traits. I imagine many Seraphim of Marc and Eli are actually pretty comfortable with mass media. And in any case, if a Seraph has to be in the business, "TV Interviewer" sounds like pretty much the perfect Role: they don't have to deal with the distribution end, or worry about creating "lies everyone agrees to believe" (i.e, fiction), and best of all, their whole job is to find the truth.

Your mileage definitely varies. When Sidney hears some lying news story, when a collegue suggests how to 'spin' a story (i.e. lie), when an editor butchers a piece so that the truth is less evident...yeah, maybe that stereotype of alcoholic reporter comes from the Seraphs who p.o.ed their Superior enough to get this assignement. FREELANCE (which tends to strike at credibility)

You'd have to have a solid Role, so that the Seraph can say "I'm Robert Paulson, and I'm running for office" without wincing, but I can definitely see it.

Shakes head. I would say that is VERY RARE and kept to 'flexible' angels. Margins.

I think you're unfairly nerfing the resonances here. If it doesn't work on a transcript, what does it work on? Will you disallow it working on a published book? After all, the book wasn't hand-written by the author, it was gone over by an editor, typeset by a printer, and it wasn't even printed by a human, but a machine! Or what about a recorded TV segment?

Shrug. I mentionedthe difference between typesetter and a transcriber. In the one instance, the person lifts the whole manuscript (corrected by an editor but signed off on by the writer) and mearly transfers it. In the second, a person is taking information and changing it to an entirely different format.

The symphony resonates from a person plucking it's strings, not someone plucking them for someone else. This is not RAW and YMMV.

Questions about demons are hardly the only things a Seraph will be looking for. Say the team of angels is looking for evidence linking the Senator to a corrupt construction company. The Seraph could look over his expense accounts, for example, and discover that 50% of the "advertising" line is a lie, told to cover up meals with various firms he was trying to connect to the construction firm, and that a good deal of the "campaign contributions" are, in fact, bribes from the same firm. That's a huge amount of info which would otherwise have to be tediously run down, tenuously confirmed, suspected but never proven, etc. It probably took hours, at worst, instead of days or weeks. And it was done from the security of the Seraph's home base, without giving away anything to anyone besides whoever they got the records from.

First: How do you get the records?

You are, IMO,generous with your information. Using the expense report: CD 3 Motive: I want to hide these funds actual use. CD 4 then I would reveal what X expense was 'a meal with Y'.

A bribe can be a campaign contribution. An illegal one, but not a 'dishonest' one. And Seraphs can't detect illegality, only lies. Be careful on noting the difference.

All of which she can filter into useful information. Again, you can't use "Seraphs don't like doing this" as a balance argument, because there are no mechanical constraints on their behavior that prevents this. The descriptions in the In Nomine books about how Seraphs don't like lies are suggestions, and the books themselves often present counterexamples who can get along with human culture just fine. Heck, one of the sample angels in the Liber Servitorum is Libnah, a Seraph of Creation in service to Jordi with a Role as an investigative reporter. The opening vignette has him asking pretty much the exact kind of questions I'm talking about: "Is your company dumping toxic waste?", and when the answer is no, "Not even at Pine Glades?", which is then used as reason to go to Pine Glades.

I actually can and did make that argument. There is nothing mechanical stopping the player from creating "Jake Firestar" who min/maxes his Magery and dumps all his points into Fireball so he can thwacka everyone in sight with righteous fire at no fatigue cost and no chance of failure either.

Now, if you want to play a Seraph whose only job is to wade through piles of transcripts, be my guest. I am not denying that a character can use his ability that way, but a) would a Seraph WANT to do it and b) is that the best use of their time? Is a Superior going to force Seraphs to do things which are painful them?

As for LS? Sure they exist. But SJ Games NPC books tend to highlight the oddballs to show what is possible, not what is normal. Your example is three times unique in that a) he's allowed a human vessel, b) that Jordi borrowed someone, and finally c) that he is a Seraph who is also a reporter. Kind of getting into the tiny corner of the Venn diagram here...

Frankly, a resonance is good for a few minute segments at best. It is going to be a S-L-O-W process. But if that is what you want your character to do. I will leave it up to you what happens on an infernal intervention when Sidney Seraph is found taking out stacks and stacks of transcripts. Heck, you don't need demons to cause trouble if someone with something to hide finds someone digging...

I'd cry foul if you gave me this as a motivation. That's playing semantic games, which the corebook specifically warns GMs not to do. It's only a step above saying "Their motivation for lying to you is 'I don't want them to learn the truth'".

Sigh. See, context is key. If Senator Fishback is asked about Noxious Petroleum, and he says 'never heard of them' and the Seraph gets a 'I want to hide my involvement with them' then I think that is a perfectly valid answer. It is a bit leaner then your 'I am lying to avoid mentioning that the CEO of Noxious Petroleum is blackmailing me with pictures of my time with that redhead transgendered prostitute in Guam to solicit my support for his "Dig a Pit to Hell" project...oh and he also serves Belial' motivational banquet, but it is, IMO, suggestive enough. (Teasing)

But to totally thrash out motivations using the political lens as an example: I want money; I am embarrassed; I don't like X; My boss asked me to; This is the party line; I don't know a thing about this and I'm adlibbing (probably a lot more common then Seraphs are comfortable with); I don't want to get caught; Because I don't care about that issue; Because it plays well with the rubes; Because I'm being blackmailed.

Motives are short vignettes of emotion/reason, not a CD 4 on the cheap. And a CD 4 isn't that wonderful either. And outside of min/maxed 98 lb weakling Seraphs who don't have the wit to understand the implications of the truths they are finding, most of the time, the Seraph gets a CD of 3 max with writing.

As an additional note about scanning recordings, bear in mind that an optimized Seraph can actually have a target number above 12 for their resonance, and thus reliably guarantee large CDs when listening live, and allow for high CDs even on recorded media. A Seraph of Dominic adds their Celestial Forces to their Perception for resonance rolls. A starting character could have 6 Celestial Forces and 12 Perception, meaning that every in-person resonance roll is CD 6, and they'd never have lower than a CD 4 for recorded media.

I am not going to discuss min/maxing. That is between you and your GM. What is possible is not necessarily most useful and desireable. And IMO, the MORE sensitive the Seraph to The Truth, the LESS he wants to wade into the bog of human crapulance. Mechanically, no, there is no reason. Stylistically? Shrug.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by JCD

Sigh. See, context is key. If Senator Fishback is asked about Noxious Petroleum, and he says 'never heard of them' and the Seraph gets a 'I want to hide my involvement with them' then I think that is a perfectly valid answer. .

This I'll take issue with. To me, "I want to hide my involvement" is still a 'what,' not a 'why.' It IS a little like the tautology of saying "The reason I lied is because I don't want to tell you the truth."

Now, it would be legitimate (without trespassing on CD4 territory) to get the following from a lie about "Have you had any improper dealings with Noxious Petroleum?":

* "I'm lying to you because the truth could hurt my political career." (On a CD4 -- the truth as I know it is that I took bribes from NP to hold up some regulations they hated in Congress.)

* "I'm lying to you because the truth would destroy my family." (On a CD4 -- the truth as I know it is that my political dealings with NP are above board but I've been sleeping with their vice-president.)

* "I'm lying to you because I think you work for my opponents." (On a CD4, the truth as I know it is that several of my other political actions have been unfairly spun into attack ads, and I think this one will be, too.)

Any of those would be a legit CD3 response without just saying "I'm hiding the truth because I don't want it to be found."

[JCD]

Maybe. The problem is that the question is sort of changing.

My question (ill defined, granted) is 'Are you involved with NP?"

Spoken answer: No (lie)

CD 4 answer: Yes (truth and Truth)

So the motivation: 'I want to keep my true involvement hidden' is not only perfectly valid, but actually answers CD 4 as well.

The question: "How are you involved with NP?" is another kettle of fish entirely.

Yes/No questions are sort of tricky that way.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by JCD

Maybe. The problem is that the question is sort of changing.

My question (ill defined, granted) is 'Are you involved with NP?"

Spoken answer: No (lie)

CD 4 answer: Yes (truth and Truth)

So the motivation: 'I want to keep my true involvement hidden' is not only perfectly valid, but actually answers CD 4 as well.

The question: "How are you involved with NP?" is another kettle of fish entirely.

Yes/No questions are sort of tricky that way.

Granted. But even then, I wouldn't have "I want to keep my true involvement hidden" as a motive ... that's granted in the fact that he lied, the why is still unseen.

"Are you involved with NP?"

"No." (I lied to you because it's political suicide to say yes)

"No." (I lied to you because I don't like you personally and think you're a busybody.)

"No." (I lied to you because I fear physical danger if I say yes.)

All of those, I think, are more in keeping with the Seraph resonance and still leave room for more details on a CD4.

EDIT: On top of which ... from experience, few politicians will give a bald-faced "No"; it's too easy for a reporter or opponent to find exceptions that the politician forgot about. Most will give a qualified answer of some kind, some of which may even ring true! ("I have treated NP the same way I have treated every company that comes before the committee" could be absolutely true if he accepts bribes on an equal-opportunity basis .... not much help to a Seraph there.)

[JCD]

I wanted to revisit the concept of a skilled interrogator. The scenario is the same one, where Sidney is hunting down Raven (who murdered her friend) and needs to approach Curtis for her whereabouts.

Raven visited Curtis the night before and told him that she was heading out to Dayton. She lied to him about her whereabouts because, hey, she's a demon being hunted by an angel. Curtis has no knowledge of the lie, nor of the nature of Sidney (his paranoia is also dialed back to rational levels. He's had problems with the game and other demons before) Sidney suspects, but does not know if Curtis is infernal.

Problem the First Access

Sidney needs to get to the person to get information. Curtis is in a nightclub. (He likes public places for obvious reasons) Getting access to video news feeds, transcripts and written papers is not automatic either. Much of it is proprietary and will involve some micro adventures to get it. Finding the right person is frequently an adventure.

So Sidney comes into the bar and...(Uses handy dandy dice roller feature) gets a 10 CD 4. Ooops! That brings up Question the First: she failed her roll. Are you just going to allow the player to keep rolling dice until she gets a roll that she likes? I wouldn't but there is no metric defined that say Sidney can't just keep rolling until she succeeds. So we hit the reroll function (for the purpose of the example only, not because I would allow a player such latitude) Three dice rolls later, she gets a 3 CD 3

Sidney: "Hi. Are you Curtis?"

Curtis <eyes her up and down>: "Yes. Who are you?" true because he finds her attractive.

S: "You can call me Sidney." (Typical Seraph response but not enough to justify rampant paranoia so we'll ignore it)

C: "Hi Sidney. Do you want to dance?" (neutral statement, but true: he wants to dance with her so he can form an attachment)

S: "No. I want to ask a few questions."

C: "What kind of questions?" (neutral statement)

S: "Do you know Raven?"

C: "Yes" (true. Motive: to find out where this conversation is going)

S <wanting to get within a yard range so if she needs to reroll her resonance she is within a yard> "May I sit down?"

C: "It's a free country." (opinion motive to get her on the same level)

S: "When was the last time you saw Raven?"

C: "Not long ago. What is this about?" (True to get information)

S: "When?"

C: "You didn't answer my question." True-to solicit information

S: "She is in trouble" And will be in more if I find her...

C: "What sort of trouble?"

S: (Lots of ways she could go here, but we have to pick one) "She killed someone." (If she was a cop, she would say 'alledgedly' or 'supposedly'. Since Sidney has direct knowledge, she is allowed no such evasions. But we will give that a pass.)

C: "A murder? Really?" (False pretended shock to hide knowledge) "Are you a cop?"

S: "No." (This gets into the Problem the Second: Authority. People asked difficult questions like this want to understand that the person is authorized (in their eyes) to the information. At this point, Sidney has identified that she is in a small group that could know who committed the murder and is outside the authorities. Hence, she is suspect)

C: "So why are you looking for her?" he wants to know her affiliations

S: (again, lots of responses, but she can't try and deceive Curtis as a cop could, nor can she try to pretend to be interested in him to influence him) "That doesn't matter. Do you know where she is?"

C: "I think it very much matters." True. He wants to know HER motives.

S: "Are you in favor of murder?"

C: "No." True He enjoys people "But that isn't the question. Why are YOU looking for her?"

S: "Do you know where she is?"

C: 'No.' Lying like a rug because he is tired of this one way conversation and she isn't that attractive. As a freebie, he is suspicious of her. "If you'll excuse me, I want to dance." half true he wants to be with someone besides you.




This is part of the reason why you never let a Seraph out by herself. I do not see the motives as being particularly chintzy, nor the scenario to be unlikely. "Ask my lawyer" "None of your business" and "Go do unpleasant things to yourself" are all valid, and in some instances likely responses.

If you are outside an interrogation room, people walk away. Heck, they walk away IN the interrogation room. Restraining a person just changed the dynamics. Silence is always an option. Now what are you going to do?

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by JCD

That brings up Question the First: she failed her roll. Are you just going to allow the player to keep rolling dice until she gets a roll that she likes? I wouldn't but there is no metric defined that say Sidney can't just keep rolling until she succeeds.

Actually, as I recall, there is. I'm away from my books, but doesn't failure on an angel's resonance temporarily "short out" the resonance?

EDIT: As posited, the scenario is a reasonable one and shows the limits of the Seraph's abilities well. (YMMV) That said, there are ways the Seraph can dance around dissonance to get some more useful answers. Just one brief example:

Q: "Are you a cop?"
A: "I'm with the authorities." (True ... never said the authorities were mortal.)
A: "I've been investigating the case for a while." (True ... and if said smoothly enough, Cutis won't realize she dodged the question.)
A: (Wordlessly unfolds wallet briefly to show a "police shield" and puts it away again. Curtis draws his own conclusions; Sidney hasn't actually told a lie, she's just shown a costume piece ... she's only in trouble if she's with Revelation.)
A: "You could say I'm a detective." (True ... he is physically capable of doing so.)


For that matter, I could see a careful Seraph answering "What is this about?" with a sad sigh and a quick look around:

S: "This won't go any farther?"
C: "I promise." Half-true; hoping to learn if someone he likes is in trouble
S: (Pitches voice low) "A friend of mine was just killed. I believe Raven knows who did it. She could soon be in great danger." (The first two statements are indisputably true, and the third is a conditional ... after all, if Sidney catches Raven, she will be in great danger.)
C: "Have you gone to the police?" (Faked shock to hide knowledge; question itself is genuine)
S: "Not yet." (True) "Have you ever dealt with the police?" (Question, no truth or falsity) "They can be noisy at times." (True) "I'm sure the last thing Raven wants is to draw a lot of attention." (Definitely true) "But if she talks to me, there may be no reason for the police to ever know she existed." (True -- besides being conditional, Sidney plans to kill Raven and untraceably make the body vanish.)

Put it that way and cooperation -- or at least useful statements -- may be easier to come by. It's all in how you frame it ...

[JCD]

I like accept (if not agree) with all your answers except one: Flipping the shield and saying nothing is tacitly saying "This is who I am." and it it NOT. Dissonance for sure. Most of the others dance with Dissonance, but don't cross the line (I MIGHT rule that the queasy feeling in her gut would give her a -1 for most rolls thereafter for some of the dodgier techniques. Seraphs REALLY hate to operate alone)

Other things which are forbidden to a Seraph:

Trying to pretend sexual interest to elicit postive feelings.

Misleading

Feinting a weapon (tactily saying: I am trying to hit you there when it is not true)

YMMV.

Edited to add. Pg 56 says that only on a negative intervention is the Resonance shorted for CD- Celestial Forces hours (10 minutes min). I personally would rule that one should take CD minutes after a first failure, but that is not canon.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by JCD

I like accept (if not agree) with all your answers except one: Flipping the shield and saying nothing is tacitly saying "This is who I am." and it it NOT. Dissonance for sure.

What if the badge said (in small type) "Acme Prop Co -- Not a real badge" or something similar? Something where the truth was out there, even if it was difficult to see?

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

What if the badge said (in small type) "Acme Prop Co -- Not a real badge" or something similar? Something where the truth was out there, even if it was difficult to see?

I'd still ding my Seraph for it. I mean, the Angelic Player's Guide suggests that the Seraph resonance can actually pick up nonverbal "lies" just like this. Holding up ID for a role that doesn't belong to you in an active attempt to deceive (as opposed to as a joke) is a lie.

That said, your other examples sounded good to me, too.