The War and Celestial politics with Dark Khalid and Magog

[Irioth]

How would the In Nomine canon setting be different, as it concerns the War and Celestial politics, if we assume as the default case that Khalid did Fall and Magog was freed and survived ?

I happen to find this the most interesting and realistic version of the setting, if we take into account the historical events of the last decade and half, and the last century, respectively.

I am largely unable to make up my mind on Furfur's existence. On one hand, his Word seems much of a redundant joke whose thematic space is largely covered by other Princes (even more so if Magog is around). OTOH, his Principate may be an interesting element to round up Shal-Mari.

[Archangel Beth]

With Furfur going for "Over The Top, Violently, and Violent Violence," as his Word interpretation, it may serve to keep Magog in check, somewhat, restricting his Word-boosts to Cruelty. Belial is likely to be the one most affected by them both, while for the rest... I'm suspicious that they haven't really filled either niche since Rapine...

Must run off now! Interesting thoughts!

[Irioth]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

With Furfur going for "Over The Top, Violently, and Violent Violence," as his Word interpretation, it may serve to keep Magog in check, somewhat, restricting his Word-boosts to Cruelty. Belial is likely to be the one most affected by them both, while for the rest... I'm suspicious that they haven't really filled either niche since Rapine...

On the other hand, we can more or less envision the various meanings of Violence as being apportioned between the "Violence for the sake of victory" of Baal, "Violence for the sake of destruction" of Belial, "Violence for the sake of death" of Saminga, and "Violence for the sake of cruelty" of Magog. This at best would leave "Violence for the sake of posturing" for Furfur, not that important.

That was my point, Magog's presence makes Furfur kind of redundant for the militant faction.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Irioth

This at best would leave "Violence for the sake of posturing" for Furfur, not that important.

I'd call it "Violence for the sake of the adrenaline rush," myself. Hardcores live in extremes, and not just in terms of violence. The world is a gray place to them; living and dying on the edge is what gives it its color.

As a side note, Final Trumpet did note that Furfur practically worshipped Magog during his brief return. So clearly he recognized an overlap, too. But a Hardcore doesn't necessarily care if he's being cruel. He doesn't care at all. He's just having a blast.

[Irioth]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

I'd call it "Violence for the sake of the adrenaline rush," myself. Hardcores live in extremes, and not just in terms of violence. The world is a gray place to them; living and dying on the edge is what gives it its color.

As a side note, Final Trumpet did note that Furfur practically worshipped Magog during his brief return. So clearly he recognized an overlap, too. But a Hardcore doesn't necessarily care if he's being cruel. He doesn't care at all. He's just having a blast.

You have a point here. I may add that in different ways, Hardcore also has an overlap with The War (due to its uncompromising nature, as shown by similar dissonance conditions) and with Fire (for obvious reasons).

When the various Princes involved are able to find an effective compromise, similarities in Words and attitudes may be one of most effective tools to turn a sizable chunk of Hell into an organized, cooperative force without too much of a need for external pressure. This largely seems to be the case with most of the militant faction, and the various alliance subgroups within the 'pacifist' faction.

When they fall into a zero-sum Word conflict, however, the opposite happens. A typical case is the enmity between Andrealphus, Haagenti, and Fleurity.

[Archangel Beth]

One might also consider whether Lucifer would consider Furfur to be a brake on Magog -- crazy sadistic Shedim are potentially a threat, after all, and having a crazy Calabite with a little Word-overlap, who might be willing to throw himself away for the HARDCORE RUSH of going toe-to-toe with a Prince as insect-copulation nuts as himself... (Should one need to push the little Princeling into such a suicidal course, that is.)

Or that Furfur might help channel Magog; the Furf knows the status quo in Hell, however much he might try to rebel against it. He's steeped in it since he was a demonling. For every part he rails against, there are a thousand blind-spots that he just takes for granted. A fanboy can lead the rogue into the right path by what he admires.

Mind, that's assuming that Lucifer was, if not masterminding, at least aware of much of the potential events, and playing everything against everything else so that no matter what happened, he won something. It might be that he got a streak of whimsy, wanted to shake things up a little, and anything else is happy coincidence for him.

(Now there's an interesting bit; adding two Princes from out of nowhere is certainly likely to stir things up in Hell. (The original Fallen hashed out everything before Lilith broke open the Gates of Hell; Alaemon's the "freshest" Fallen Prince I can think of, and he spent a long time as a Servitor, first. There's no reason to assume that Dark Khalid and Magog would mesh smoothly with the same hierarchies and alliances and understandings that the rest of the Princes have. Dark Khalid would be fresh from his own little world of quasi-Outcasting, and Magog's been stuffed in a hole with his minions for a long time -- how much "guys, you people seriously aren't aware the Emperor has no clothes?" are they likely to be able to find and yap about?

Magog: "Wait, what do you MEAN everyone knows that Asmodeus' people consort with angels? And you people are all OKAY with this? Are you INSANE? And coming from me, that's pretty nuts.")

[Irioth]

Well, if we take Dark Khalid into account, he makes the other newcomer militant Princes like Furfur and Magog, not to mention established ones like Belial and Saminga, or the other Habbalite Superiors like Vapula and Fleurity, look like paragons of sanity and self-restraint.

[Whitelaughter]

All three DPs are excellent canon fodder for Baal (and Beleth) to expend grinding Heaven down. I would expect the older DPs to 'help' these bullet shields establish themselves by carving territory out of previously Heavenly turf so that they'll be completely occupied repelling angelic counter-attacks.

[PenitentDemon]

curious? What does heaven do with Tethers of Faith it knows of if Khalid falls, do they automaticly become infernal, or will heaven be able to hold onto them?

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by PenitentDemon

curious? What does heaven do with Tethers of Faith it knows of if Khalid falls, do they automaticly become infernal, or will heaven be able to hold onto them?

There's precedent in the Liber Castellorum that Heaven holds onto the Divine Tethers.

Spoiler:  

One of the oldest Tethers listed is to Light, and it has an Angelic Seneschal despite Lucifer having Fallen. It's continued existence is kept very, very secret.