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Old 09-03-2010, 12:31 PM   #11
Rocket Man
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Default Re: Does this term sound right to you?

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Originally Posted by Jason View Post
"Servitor Attunements are typically 10 character points, while Group Attunements are typically 5."
Thank you. That clarifies the issue in my mind.
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Old 09-04-2010, 09:02 PM   #12
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Default Re: Does this term sound right to you?

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Originally Posted by Jason View Post
"Servitor Attunements are typically 10 character points, while Group Attunements are typically 5."
That's exactly the kind of context I was thinking of...with three kinds of celestial instead of two, writing about attunements and resonances can get very awkward.

On a related note (no pun intended), would "Orchestra" be a decent metaphor for all celestials on a particular side of the War? Referring to the Divine, Infernal and Gray Orchestras feels more consistent with the musical imagery than just saying "side" or (Heaven forbid) "faction". To continue the metaphor a bit further: the Divine Orchestra hears God's original Symphony; the Infernal one hears a chaotic mixture of personal compositions; and the Gray Orchestra hears the ordered-but-different themes created by whole cultures and pantheons.
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Old 09-04-2010, 09:59 PM   #13
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Default Re: Does this term sound right to you?

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Originally Posted by ISNorden View Post
On a related note (no pun intended), would "Orchestra" be a decent metaphor for all celestials on a particular side of the War? Referring to the Divine, Infernal and Gray Orchestras feels more consistent with the musical imagery than just saying "side" or (Heaven forbid) "faction". To continue the metaphor a bit further: the Divine Orchestra hears God's original Symphony; the Infernal one hears a chaotic mixture of personal compositions; and the Gray Orchestra hears the ordered-but-different themes created by whole cultures and pantheons.
I was actually thinking similarly ... was somewhat deterred by the fact that a choir is a vocal term, but an orchestra is instrumental ... but it sounds good, doesn't it?
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Old 09-05-2010, 01:33 PM   #14
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Default Re: Does this term sound right to you?

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... and the Gray Orchestra hears the ordered-but-different themes created by whole cultures and pantheons.
Here is where you are losing me.

All the grays are allied?

The big distinction is that all celestials have a common source, but each gray has its own origin. If a gray lady accepts a celestial into her service then she is diluting her own source with the message of Abraham.
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Old 09-05-2010, 04:01 PM   #15
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Here is where you are losing me.

All the grays are allied?

The big distinction is that all celestials have a common source, but each gray has its own origin. If a gray lady accepts a celestial into her service then she is diluting her own source with the message of Abraham.
Yes and no. The Grays are still celestials themselves, though ones that have transformed radically by the standards of both Heaven and Hell. That said, I agree that the idea of a "Gray Orchestra" is probably more theoretical than actual. As ISNorden conceived the idea, Gray Celestials tend to congregate either around specific Earth cultures (often allying themselves to a pantheon), or specific themes exemplified by a particular Elder (Luck, Survival, The Twilight, etc.). But I believe you're right that there's no overarching Gray Alliance beyond some cooperation between the Elders of the City ... the only thing that many Grays have in common is the desire to find a "third answer" in a bipolar War.
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Old 09-05-2010, 05:20 PM   #16
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Default Re: Does this term sound right to you?

That suggests something interesting.

What if the pagans started assimilating into Archtypes instead of staying Seperate. Instead of Marduk and Thor and Zeus, you had the Thunderbringer. You have the Mother and the Fool and the Trickster. The pagans morphing and joining into Jungian Archtypes, with full support of the mental space of humans and not just the localized aspects such as the 50 Aesir worshipers left in the world. They can get the juice from the Maori, the Norwegian Pagans, the Greeks etc.
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Old 09-11-2010, 01:10 AM   #17
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Default Re: Does this term sound right to you?

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Yes and no. The Grays are still celestials themselves, though ones that have transformed radically by the standards of both Heaven and Hell. That said, I agree that the idea of a "Gray Orchestra" is probably more theoretical than actual. As ISNorden conceived the idea, Gray Celestials tend to congregate either around specific Earth cultures (often allying themselves to a pantheon), or specific themes exemplified by a particular Elder (Luck, Survival, The Twilight, etc.). But I believe you're right that there's no overarching Gray Alliance beyond some cooperation between the Elders of the City ... the only thing that many Grays have in common is the desire to find a "third answer" in a bipolar War.
As usual, you hit the nail on the head; lumping Gray Celestials together is more of a game-mechanic convenience than a reflection of their politics. They might act in concert (no pun intended!) when Heaven or Hell threatens humanity's collective right to its own dreams, gods, and legends. Otherwise, the search for a third solution is the only cause that Grays have in common.
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Old 09-11-2010, 01:42 AM   #18
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That suggests something interesting.

What if the pagans started assimilating into Archtypes instead of staying Seperate. Instead of Marduk and Thor and Zeus, you had the Thunderbringer. You have the Mother and the Fool and the Trickster. The pagans morphing and joining into Jungian Archtypes, with full support of the mental space of humans and not just the localized aspects such as the 50 Aesir worshipers left in the world. They can get the juice from the Maori, the Norwegian Pagans, the Greeks etc.
That would happen if ethereal assumption-battles were allowed to continue unchecked, wiith no agreements or boundaries between domains. Most of the Elders, though, discourage any trend that wipes out pantheons en masse:
  • Shengshi (Elder of Survival) sees individual tribes, cultures, and spirits as having the right to defend themselves from assimilation.
  • Maat (Elder of the Balance) sees mega-archetypes as a travesty of her Word--forcing neutrality through sameness. Diplomacy and fair judgment, in her eyes, are the best way to keep any one side from growing too strong.
  • Dhuniya (Elder of Memory) sees mega-archetypes as distortions; they may be useful for understanding part of someone else's beliefs, but not for getting an accurate picture of the details. How can the same storm-god be both murderous and friendly, lecherous and loyal? Different memories point to different spirits, Dhuniya insists, even if they have some common threads.
  • Hrodmarr (Elder of Glory) has mixed emotions about mega-archetypes taking over the Marches. On the one hand, the ultimate winner of an assumption battle deserves credit for his achievement. On the other, letting a single thunder-spirit gain all the power from dozens of cults...allowing that would belittle the achievements that each people and pantheon has attained. He's willing to hail a victor on the way to transfiguration, as long as that victor isn't trying to take over the Far Marches as a whole.
  • Morpheus (Elder of Imagination) is the only Elder who fully supports this kind of ethereal assimilation. If human beings are starting to imagine gods and spirits differently, it's his duty to protect the new images just as he has the old.
  • Eber (Elder of the Twilight) acknowledges that human beliefs are always changing, and that a transition from individual gods to archetypes is no different from others that have affected the Marches. Indeed, spirits that strong might gain enough power to keep both Hell and Heaven at bay--but he isn't sure of that yet.
  • Wakanda (Elder of Luck) reasons that any spirit strong enough to gain that much power has luck on its side, and took the right risks to become what it's become. Still, a super-ethereal of any kind is likely to attract attention from Heaven, Hell, AND other ethereal domains...the other shoe will drop sooner or later.
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Old 09-11-2010, 06:24 AM   #19
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Default Re: Does this term sound right to you?

I'm personally a fan of Shiva Nataraja, which inspired this riff on the concept of mega-archetypes:

the Destroyers. Beginning as simply a banding together of gods of death, destruction, oblivion, and starting over, their eventual plan is to lose themselves in a mass identity. But for now they're encouraging other gods to merge, to destroy ethnic divisions, destroy the fine differences between them, to gently prod them to destroy their own distinctive characteristics to meld into the Megas.

There are skeptics among the gods who've pointed out that the Destroyers have hypocriticially kept their own identities. There are others who are glad of it, because a Mega of Destruction might now know when to stop...
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Old 09-11-2010, 09:51 AM   #20
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Default Re: Does this term sound right to you?

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Originally Posted by ISNorden View Post
That would happen if ethereal assumption-battles were allowed to continue unchecked, wiith no agreements or boundaries between domains. Most of the Elders, though, discourage any trend that wipes out pantheons en masse:
  • Shengshi (Elder of Survival) sees individual tribes, cultures, and spirits as having the right to defend themselves from assimilation.
  • Maat (Elder of the Balance) sees mega-archetypes as a travesty of her Word--forcing neutrality through sameness. Diplomacy and fair judgment, in her eyes, are the best way to keep any one side from growing too strong.
  • Dhuniya (Elder of Memory) sees mega-archetypes as distortions; they may be useful for understanding part of someone else's beliefs, but not for getting an accurate picture of the details. How can the same storm-god be both murderous and friendly, lecherous and loyal? Different memories point to different spirits, Dhuniya insists, even if they have some common threads.
  • Hrodmarr (Elder of Glory) has mixed emotions about mega-archetypes taking over the Marches. On the one hand, the ultimate winner of an assumption battle deserves credit for his achievement. On the other, letting a single thunder-spirit gain all the power from dozens of cults...allowing that would belittle the achievements that each people and pantheon has attained. He's willing to hail a victor on the way to transfiguration, as long as that victor isn't trying to take over the Far Marches as a whole.
  • Morpheus (Elder of Imagination) is the only Elder who fully supports this kind of ethereal assimilation. If human beings are starting to imagine gods and spirits differently, it's his duty to protect the new images just as he has the old.
  • Eber (Elder of the Twilight) acknowledges that human beliefs are always changing, and that a transition from individual gods to archetypes is no different from others that have affected the Marches. Indeed, spirits that strong might gain enough power to keep both Hell and Heaven at bay--but he isn't sure of that yet.
  • Wakanda (Elder of Luck) reasons that any spirit strong enough to gain that much power has luck on its side, and took the right risks to become what it's become. Still, a super-ethereal of any kind is likely to attract attention from Heaven, Hell, AND other ethereal domains...the other shoe will drop sooner or later.
Even if this is so, assimilation into archetypes could still be going on faster than the City would want for several reasons:

1) There are only so many Elders. Even if each had the strength of an older Superior ... well, they're only seven and each of the other two sides can bring at least 17 to bear. Most of the Elders' strength is going to have to go into protecting their own -- guarding their stronghold in the Marches, maintaining footholds on Earth, and encouraging the Words that they've somehow been able to establish within the Symphony. There's just not much to spare for also refereeing squabbles and mergers between the ethereal "gods."

2) There are only so many Servitors. As you've explained it to me before, "side-stepping" is just not all that common. Even if the Elders can make their own Servitors to flesh out the ranks (which also serves as a drain on their power, see No. 1 above), there is no way they are going to match the numerical strength of either Heaven or Hell ... both of which regard the Marches as a secondary front. The Elders have to pick their battles very carefully to avoid spreading their forces too thin on either Heaven or Earth; stepping into the middle of pantheonic struggles draws off reserves they don't have.

3) Not only are there fewer Grays, not all Grays are under command of the City! Those who ally with a specific pantheon due to their love of its culture may well agree that it should strike out and increase its strength. If it succeeds, literally more power to 'em. If it fails, those Grays probably fall as well and aren't around to say "oops" to the others.

4) The fundamental philosophy of the Elders would actually militate against their interfering in "assimilation wars" without VERY good reason. After all, one of their basic tenants is that humanity and its dreams have the right to go where they will without celestial interference ... if celestials, even Gray ones, prevent the assimilation of the mightiest dreams, how is that any better from the actions of Heaven and Hell?

5) As you noted above, not all Elders agree that this is a bad thing. If their counsel on what to do about assimilation is divided, any action against it is likely to be long-delayed. If they don't act as a united front, then you have only a portion of the Elders acting to prevent assimilation ... which means the "interfering forces" are even weaker than points 1 and 2 would suggest.
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