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Old 01-20-2019, 02:28 PM   #51
Purple Snit
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Default Re: Make contact skill great again.

So, once again, I ask; are you building a Player Character, building an NPC, asking about skills/advantages to let your players purchase, or something else? It would certainly be a lot easier to answer questions if we knew what you wanted.
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Old 01-20-2019, 04:10 PM   #52
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Make contact skill great again.

The basic thing I would say about organizational Contacts is that they're intended to represent the organization's employees, volunteers, slaves, or other workers; that is, the general personnel of the organization. They don't represent incredibly competent player characters. They represent people the organization has recruited and could replace by investing time and wealth. They're essentially background characters, members of the supporting cast.

The organization may be able to provide PCs with vast resources that give them big boost to their effective skill, whether by acting as their Patron or by their having Rank within it. (But NOT by acting as their Contact; what a Contact provides is two of quick, inexpensive, and nonhazardous, and must in any case be a minor favor.) But it doesn't provide vast resources to its own personnel. Rather, those personnel are themselves among the resources that it provides to the PCs. They're the forensics lab that helps them identify the master villain, the pilot who flies them where they need to go, the paramedics who keep them from dying when they're hurt, and so on. They're competent, and they can be impressively good. But they're not meant to overshadow the PCs themselves. And effective skill above 21 almost unavoidably will do that.
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Old 01-20-2019, 09:48 PM   #53
Alonsua
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Default Re: Make contact skill great again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
They're competent, and they can be impressively good. But they're not meant to overshadow the PCs themselves. And effective skill above 21 almost unavoidably will do that.
What if you dont want to treat your PCs as little and special snowflakes?
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Old 01-20-2019, 10:50 PM   #54
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Make contact skill great again.

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Originally Posted by Alonsua View Post
What if you dont want to treat your PCs as little and special snowflakes?
Then we're still talking about Allies and Patrons. Contacts are inherently minor players.
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Old 01-20-2019, 11:01 PM   #55
Alonsua
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Default Re: Make contact skill great again.

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Then we're still talking about Allies and Patrons. Contacts are inherently minor players.
Where does it say so and how is effective skill 21 "minor"?

Lets agree that 21 is the limit aslong as equipment and complementary skill roll modifiers can be summed up on top. This way a Very Wealthy organization with Contact Group 21 would have an effective skill of 23.

Last edited by Alonsua; 01-20-2019 at 11:19 PM.
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Old 01-20-2019, 11:17 PM   #56
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Make contact skill great again.

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Lets agree that 21 is the limit aslong as equipment and complementary skill rolls modifiers can be summed up on top.
No. No one but you "agrees" with that. Equipment and complementary skills are what the organization provides, and why its personnel can attain success rates of 18 or 21. They are not the skills of the organizational personnel acting on their own. What you are trying to do is abusive.
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Old 01-20-2019, 11:23 PM   #57
Alonsua
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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
What you are trying to do is abusive.
I dont think so. If by TL8 you have a Struggling organization vs a Filthy Rich one, both with Contact Group 21, it is highly realistic to represent a quick contest among them by rolling 21-1 for the Struggling one vs 21+4 for the Filthy Rich one. Trying to roll both of them at 21 regardless of their equipment seems to be the abusive option*.

And you didnt tell me if you are trying to have your cake and eat it too by calling effective skill as the sum of every bonus but not the sum of them with the penalties.

*Unless what you are trying to tell me is that all professionals have the same level of competence, or that a talented doctor cannot do charitable work. And I disagree with both possibilities: There are better and worse football players, and there are physicians who have better or worse equipment regardless of their abilities.

Last edited by Alonsua; 01-20-2019 at 11:34 PM.
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Old 01-20-2019, 11:40 PM   #58
Andrew Hackard
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Default Re: Make contact skill great again.

Bill has been one of our authors for nearly two decades and has written quite widely for the two most recent editions of GURPS. If he is telling you that a rule doesn't work the way you believe it should, I recommend that you listen to him. You are welcome to make a house ruling to make the rules work the way you would prefer, of course.

On a broader note:

The level of aggression by several posters in this and some other recent threads is unpleasant, unwarranted, and unwelcome. The Ignore List is there for a reason -- if you find yourself fed up with someone's posts, use it before you get baited into an infraction or a ban. We do not countenance "but they were being a jerk first" as a defense to your own poor actions. Everyone here is an adult and is expected to behave civilly, and we are ready to sanction those who fall short of that standard.
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Old 01-20-2019, 11:44 PM   #59
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Default Re: Make contact skill great again.

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Originally Posted by Alonsua View Post
I dont think so. If by TL8 you have a Struggling organization vs a Filthy Rich one, both with Contact Group 21, it is highly realistic to represent a quick contest among them by rolling 21-1 for the Struggling one vs 21+4 for the Filthy Rich one.
Why are two contact groups rolling quick contests against each other?

As the wording of the advantage explains, the Effective Skill is a combination of the contact's inherent actual skill level, plus bonuses from the equipment and resources available to them in their organisation- thus Effective Skill already contains an implicit, unspecified equipment bonus and helper bonus.

If your Struggling organisation and Filthy Rich one have the same effective skill, it's because the Struggling one has a better innate skill level somehow, or better friends, or something else.

The point of the high skill is that Contacts are still making skill rolls, so they can get TDM's which help or hinder their roll from other quarters- how difficult the information is to find, how hard the question itself is, how quickly you need to know, how much you're willing to bribe or gift the contact, etc and so on.
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Old 01-20-2019, 11:45 PM   #60
Alonsua
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Default Re: Make contact skill great again.

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Bill has been one of our authors for nearly two decades and has written quite widely for the two most recent editions of GURPS. If he is telling you that a rule doesn't work the way you believe it should, I recommend that you listen to him. You are welcome to make a house ruling to make the rules work the way you would prefer, of course.
Of course, he has helped me on countless occasions and I have him in high regard, thats why I am trying to raise concern about the problems and limitations inherent in the generalized interpretation of the advantage and looking for the most efficient way to solve them.
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