By the way... Why the change with dodge?

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Raekai

Couldn't you just get it to a point where absolutely no one can hit you?

How? Again, the only way to increase your base dodge is to increase your speed, which is very expensive and, in many campaigns, liable to hard limits imposed by the GM. In 3rd edition, a strong character could easily crank his dodge up with armor which increases his PD. That's no longer an option.

At any rate, even if you do have a great dodge or other good defenses, attackers can still use Feint (which has been around since 1st edition) or Deceptive Attack to take defenses down. It tends to be inefficient in terms of the amount of time it takes to hurt the defender, but it does provide the option of something more contest-like.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by Smudd

Finally, I don't really like the idea of deceptive attack because anyone can do it, so when we tried the 4ed rules everyone, always did it and to me that's a bit of a break in the mechanics.

I don't really see the problem there. It's part of the core mechanic, really, and I don't have a problem with people using it. Really my only problem with it is that they made it an attack option, which many people will not notice, rather than making it a real part of the core mechanic (that is, something you should usually consider using) because it really does even out the combats a bit and make it so they don't turn into an endless stream of "I hit, he defends, he hits, I defend, ad infinitum."

In fact, if you have skill 14+ and your skill is roughly equal to or higher than your opponents it's almost always advantageous to use a Deceptive Attack and disadvantageous to use it if your opponent has a higher skill than you (there you're better off using a Feint and waiting to get a good skill roll before you follow up on the Feint, since you can judge whether you got a good skill roll or not, or trying another tactic besides trying to slug it out with someone who's better than you are).

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Raekai

And like I pointed out... Couldn't you just get it to a point where absolutely no one can hit you? Regardless, that would be a problem in both editions, but it feels even more like a problem with the plus 3.

It was much easier to get to that point with a fencing parry in 3e than it is with 4e. You took PD2 leather armour, PD1 buckler, PD1 basket hilt, Combat Reflexes, and Fencing-15, and you had a parry of 15.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Smudd

The main reason we initially embraced GURPS was the whole idea of contest of skills... we love it!
Whenever I try to sell the idea of playing GURPS to other gamers and they have heard it is complicated I say "No, it's simple, roll 3D6 and get under a number with some modifiers the G.M/rules stipulate." Easy!

Finally, I don't really like the idea of deceptive attack because anyone can do it, so when we tried the 4ed rules everyone, always did it and to me that's a bit of a break in the mechanics. I think it would work better as a learnt skill like off hand weapon training. Sorry if there are already things like that but I don't have all the books and do really enjoy just going off the main rule books.

Please don't hurt me Kromm...

What are you thinking deceptive attack does that using it all the time is a problem? Especially if you're already fond of attacking as a contest, which (while not a good mechanic) brings about the very same effect that high skill on the attack cancels out high skill on the defense?

Deceptive Attack is supposed to be ubiquitous in high-skill combat. Not using it heavily is likely to break the game.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Smudd

when my gaming group of friends changed to 4th edition ...the only thing we kept was the contest in combat.

The attack/defense system is not new to 4e. Combat was never a quick contest in GURPS, whether 3e or 1e.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

The attack/defense system is not new to 4e. Combat was never a quick contest in GURPS, whether 3e or 1e.

There was an option in 3e (called "Only the best may win" IIRC) for making fights between very high skill fighters into quick contests. Basically, that was the trial balloon for that rule. The verdict was that it was a bad idea, game mechanically speaking.

[apoc527]

Using quick contests for combat completely ruins the system, actually. Suddenly, it becomes completely pointless to aim for anything because if you do, you just make it much easier to dodge (as Kromm points out). In ranged combat, when I aim for your head, I basically guarantee that you can dodge out of the way! That makes no sense.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by apoc527

In ranged combat, when I aim for your head, I basically guarantee that you can dodge out of the way! That makes no sense.

Heck "In ranged combat, I basically guarentee that you can dodge out of the way". Guns should not be easier to dodge than fists.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Heck "In ranged combat, I basically guarentee that you can dodge out of the way". Guns should not be easier to dodge than fists.

...Of course, under the rules, they very frequently are. Since Deceptive Attack is a melee combat option. Using it for ranged combat is a later, optional add-on.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Heck "In ranged combat, I basically guarentee that you can dodge out of the way". Guns should not be easier to dodge than fists.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

...Of course, under the rules, they very frequently are. Since Deceptive Attack is a melee combat option. Using it for ranged combat is a later, optional add-on.

That assumes that you can dodge a bullet, which you should never be allowed to do unless you have a supernatural ability that would allow it (e.g. Enhanced Time Sense). You can dodge the point of aim of a gun, but if you're doing that then you're at a much closer range and the attacker should be allowed to make Deceptive Attacks. You can also make evasive maneuvers, making yourself a harder target to hit, but that's not the same thing as dodging really and also requires that you know that people are actively shooting at you.