By the way... Why the change with dodge?

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Pegging together the equally meaningless bottom ends of two scales is a terrible basis.

Well, if you really think the 3d6 scale, the Move scale, and the Basic Speed scale are meaningless in GURPS, you shouldn't be too worked up about it. Speed, Move, and Dodge are all also directly related by the rules, so it's not an arbitrary association.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Well, if you really think the 3d6 scale, the Move scale, and the Basic Speed scale are meaningless in GURPS, you shouldn't be too worked up about it. Speed, Move, and Dodge are all also directly related by the rules, so it's not an arbitrary association.

The Move scale is clearly not meaningful below zero. Dodge doesn't bottom out at 3, though clearly buying base Dodge down below 3 would be a point crock. Speed bottoming out at 0 is something I'd never seen before this thread and which I see no particular reason for except to prevent getting points for selling Dodge below 3. And the relation between Dodge and Basic Speed is Dodge = Basic Speed + 3, but that fact obviously can't be part of its own justification.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The Move scale is clearly not meaningful below zero. Dodge doesn't bottom out at 3, though clearly buying base Dodge down below 3 would be a point crock. Speed bottoming out at 0 is something I'd never seen before this thread and which I see no particular reason for except to prevent getting points for selling Dodge below 3. And the relation between Dodge and Basic Speed is Dodge = Basic Speed + 3, but that fact obviously can't be part of its own justification.

One of the rules that pops up (or will) here and there is that in some cases, if the thing you're rolling against drops below 3, you don't get to roll at all.

I think, though (without checking the books) that defenses might be exempt from this canonically. Still, I'd feel plenty justified as GM to disallow dodging if your roll dropped below 3.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Basic Speed 0.00 means you'll act last against everyone but other Basic Speed 0.00 people. It's fundamentally the opposite of Enhanced Time Sense in this regard. However, there's absolutely nothing illegal about a creature taking Basic Speed 0.00 for -100 points, Basic Move 5 for 25 points, and trying to dodge at 3, or even at 6 with a retreat. The fact that you act last doesn't mean you can't run and duck . . . presumably, somebody who always runs last is as valid as somebody who always runs first.

I'm snatching that for a fantasy race concept. Maybe some semi-mobile treefolk.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

One of the rules that pops up (or will) here and there is that in some cases, if the thing you're rolling against drops below 3, you don't get to roll at all.

I think, though (without checking the books) that defenses might be exempt from this canonically. Still, I'd feel plenty justified as GM to disallow dodging if your roll dropped below 3.

Active defenses are indeed exempt. That said, we still took great pains to ensure that no target number would regularly be lower than 3 in our 3d system. It's the active-defense exception, which exists to give players a better sense of agency and control, that's the quirky afterthought . . . not the +3 to norm defense targets into the 3-18 range. When Dodge is used for something other than an active defense roll (say, when the GM uses it to gauge reflexes in a Quick Contest of Dodge), it doesn't benefit from the exemption; someone with a 2 or less would be out of luck. The exceptional case is "defense roll," not "any roll against your Dodge score."

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I'm snatching that for a fantasy race concept. Maybe some semi-mobile treefolk.

FWIW, GURPS Zombies recommends the Basic Speed 0.00, Dodge 3, Move 1+ case for the slowest, most shambling sorts of movie zombies. That setup ensures that all characters with speaking roles get to act before the zeds, as in the movies, yet that the dead somehow move around and present a threat despite this oddity. It would also be good for the sorts of primitive robots in some TL6 pulps, which lurch around hopelessly and have to "compute" everything, yet somehow duck blows and chase people.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Kromm

FWIW, GURPS Zombies recommends the Basic Speed 0.00, Dodge 3, Move 1+ case for the slowest, most shambling sorts of movie zombies. That setup ensures that all characters with speaking roles get to act before the zeds, as in the movies, yet that the dead somehow move around and present a threat despite this oddity.

This book definitely is going on the special place on my shelf right next to GURPS Undead. Eeeee!

[apoc527]

Originally Posted by Kromm

FWIW, GURPS Zombies recommends the Basic Speed 0.00, Dodge 3, Move 1+ case for the slowest, most shambling sorts of movie zombies. That setup ensures that all characters with speaking roles get to act before the zeds, as in the movies, yet that the dead somehow move around and present a threat despite this oddity. It would also be good for the sorts of primitive robots in some TL6 pulps, which lurch around hopelessly and have to "compute" everything, yet somehow duck blows and chase people.

Totally a non sequitor, but this is very clever. It's also NOT what the walkers/biters in The Walking Dead are like--I'm curious to see some GURPS stats for a typical walker. They seem unable to catch a running person, but SOME of them are quite quick. Anyway, that's off topic. I'm sure someone will start a Walking Dead thread someday anyway.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by apoc527

Totally a non sequitor, but this is very clever. It's also NOT what the walkers/biters in The Walking Dead are like--I'm curious to see some GURPS stats for a typical walker. They seem unable to catch a running person, but SOME of them are quite quick.

They might have horror movie speed, where a monster's speed depends on how fast you can move, so the faster you are, the faster they are.

[Kromm]

GURPS Zombies covers pretty much all zombies: objectively slow shamblers, subjectively "slow" dead that nevertheless keep up, ordinary-speed zeds, and the formerly controversial (now pretty standard) fast ones. It's less a prescription than a tool box. For that matter, it covers lots of origins, from Vodoun through cursed burial grounds to contagion, and including fantasy necromancy and steampunk "Frankstein's monster without the brains" constructs. Speed is all over the map . . . I think that at least one worked-example zombie is basically a super-soldier with superhuman speed and reflexes. I didn't exactly worship at Romero's feet, especially not when I opined that Universal Soldier and Silent Rage were zombie movies of sorts. :)

[vicky_molokh]

Showing the variety of zombies in three titles:
Biohazard, Dead Space, Left for Dead.