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Old 06-17-2018, 02:12 AM   #31
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: The Staff & Quarterstaff combo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
Now the meta for my campaign is "wear as much armor as you can". Cloth & a small shield is considered dangerously light armor for both PC's and NPC's. [...] I suspect in most TFT campaigns typical armor being 3 or 4 points is not unusual.
I don't know what a "meta" is but this paragraph makes me wonder if you have forgotten that your campaign has lots of house rules that don't exist in canonical TFT. In particular, talents exist that greatly increase fighter weapon damage, armour penalties are greatly reduced and talents increase the protective power of shields. Also, in my experience and IIRC generally you start characters well above 32 points. It's a completely different regime from the one it would be inserted into if added to canonical TFT. It's hardly surprising your observations differ from modelling results that assumed canonical TFT as a baseline.

Quote:
Currently players are in the mid to high 40's attributes.
i.e. illegally high by new TFT standards.

Quote:
I do think that it is logical that a Staff's shocking damage should be added to a quarterstaff bash. David and Skarg agreed
My preference is deleting the shock damage from the regular staff spell altogether and having wizards just bash things with wooden sticks. The staff spell is useful in other ways: allowing spells to be cast while holding a weapon; mana storage; etc. Staff of power does provide a bonus. Wizard staff damage depends on wizard ST, via some mechanism or other: a table; a variety of staff-like weapons; a rule related to unarmed combat damage, the existing club and maul rules; whatever. It's simple, it's clean; it's believable; it can be in the spirit of TFT if you choose a good mechanism; it gives more or less the same result as canonical TFT and it doesn't allow wizards to outcompete fighters.

The rule as stated in canonical TFT is unambiguous but puts a stress on my suspension of disbelief.
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Old 06-17-2018, 03:34 AM   #32
Wayne
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Geelong, Australia
Default Re: Staffs and Quarterstaff talent.

my 2˘

I think a staff is a lump of wood, it does 1d damage.

If the wizard has quarterstaff talent they should be able to do 1d+2 rather than 1d.

You may be able to cast another spell (enchantment) on it to do more damage.
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Old 06-17-2018, 01:35 PM   #33
JLV
 
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Default Re: Staffs and Quarterstaff talent.

Wayne, the only downside I can see on your "If Wizards have Quarterstaff" comment is that since according to the Staff Spell as currently written, "staffs" include wands, the Quarterstaff talent wouldn't really seem to be too effective for smaller than actual Gandalfian-type staffs. So how do you rule if Harry Potter is using his wand in a melee situation?
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Old 06-17-2018, 01:45 PM   #34
Wayne
 
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Location: Geelong, Australia
Default Re: Staffs and Quarterstaff talent.

Yes, my bad.
What I meant to say was the ‘wand’ with staff spell will do 1 damage.
If you want to do more then learn how to use a quarterstaff. Is it worth the 2 talent points? Up to the player to decide.
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Old 06-18-2018, 12:08 AM   #35
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Re: The Staff & Quarterstaff combo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
I don't know what a "meta" is but this paragraph makes me wonder if you have forgotten that your campaign has lots of house rules that don't exist in canonical TFT. ...
META:
In games like Magic the Gathering or X-Wing Miniatures, 'meta' describes group think. If everyone in magic is concentrating on blue counter magic spells, then if you are going to play a tournament deck, you have to expect that you are likely to be fighting control decks with counter spells. That will affect the design of your deck. If the meta was that the tough tournament decks had lots of large, fast creatures, then your tournament deck would be differently designed to deal with THAT style of deck.

If in X-Wing, the meta might be that there are lots of ships that can pick actions to move after the maneuvers, in order to avoid firing arcs. Given that you KNOW you are likely going to have to deal with arc dodging ships, how to you counter it, when you build your squadron?


What I meant to say is that the group think in my campaign is you really want to be stopping 4 or more points of damage. If in your campaign melee fighters thought that cloth and small shield lowered your DX too much and a couple points of armor was typical, then it would be a totally different group think.

Which could happen. If fighting was rare, and most people were nobles and traders with lots of talk-talk, then nobody might wear armor and everyone would be running around with rapiers or the lighter small swords.

TYPICAL TFT:
All true, but the only thing that really affects the combo's discussion is what is the typical armor rating of people in the campaign. If it is 4 or higher, my point stands.

Also, I've made the Flesh magic items a lot more expensive. A Leather Flesh item costs about what a Stone Flesh costs in regular TFT. My Stone Flesh costs what an Iron Flesh used to. And my Iron Flesh item costs so much that no one has managed to get one for years.

I've also doubled the cost of weapon / armor enchantments to get armor. (I just felt that the armor enchantment was too cheap so I upped their costs.) I also said that if you had Leather armor (that stops 2), then the best weapon / armor enchantment that could be cast on the armour, could only double it. So you can't buy Cloth with a -5 w/ae. The best you can get is cloth with a -1 point w/ae.

So in that respect, good magic armor is a lot harder to get in my campaign than in typical TFT campaigns. Despite it being at least double the price, my players STILL buy it as soon as possible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
>> Rick was saying he had players in the high 40's attributes.
i.e. illegally high by new TFT standards.
Well, I first started talking about this combo before we learned that Steve was capping attributes at 40 (not counting wishes).


Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
My preference is deleting the shock damage from the regular staff spell altogether and having wizards just bash things with wooden sticks. ...

The rule as stated in canonical TFT is unambiguous but puts a stress on my suspension of disbelief.
Yes, that works.

***

My players got together for the afternoon and evening today; a short update.

I checked attributes of my PC's. They are:

Attributes: 51, 49, 49, 47, 42, 41.
// Low guys are two new characters who joined a couple years ago. High guy is oldest PC who never died.

Armour of PC's: 4, 9, (2, 4 or 6), 6, (usually 4 but sometimes 8), 4, (4 or 6 depending on if he uses shield or not).

I had mentioned the wizard PC didn't have the Quarterstaff talent, but I asked, and he IS studying it. He has spent 6+ months studying it (actually over a game year), so all he needs to do is get around to paying the 2 memory points and pick it up. Now that he finally has Staff of Power he is thinking of doing so.

What happened this adventure:
No fighting, but they started work on building a fort, travelled a long way to a wizard's college and sold 2 spells that wizard school didn't have had for LESSER Wishes. (A lesser Wish is just like a regular wish, but it can't improve attributes.) This is a big deal, it is probably 10 real years since any player of mine got a wish (or a lesser wish), they are very rare. This was the climax of an adventure they have been working on for the 5 real months.

Warm regards, Rick.

Last edited by Rick_Smith; 06-18-2018 at 03:17 PM. Reason: Mistake, wrote max attributes in new TFT was 42, not 40. Now Fixed.
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Old 06-18-2018, 11:45 AM   #36
JLV
 
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Default Re: The Staff & Quarterstaff combo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
TYPICAL TFT:
All true, but the only thing that really affects the combo's discussion is what is the typical armor rating of people in the campaign. If it is 4 our higher, my point stands.

Also, I've made the Flesh magic items a lot more expensive. A Leather Flesh item costs about what a Stone Flesh costs in regular TFT. My Stone Flesh costs what an Iron Flesh used to. And my Iron Flesh item costs so much that no one has managed to get one for years.

I've also doubled the cost of weapon / armor enchantments to get armor. (I just felt that the armor enchantment was too cheap so I upped their costs.) I also said that if you had Leather armor (that stops 2), then the best weapon / armor enchantment that could be cast on the armour, could only double it. So you can't buy Cloth with a -5 w/ae. The best you can get is cloth with a -1 point w/ae.

So in that respect, good magic armor is a lot harder to get in my campaign than in typical TFT campaigns. Despite it being at least double the price, my players STILL buy it as soon as possible.
You let people buy magic items? Generally I make them earn it via play (i.e., they have to find it, and usually kill something powerful to get it). What you can buy is things like potions. Armor and weapons, they're made by smiths/armorers, and the best you can buy is "fine" quality. You might find magical armor, but you won't be able to buy it. Wizards might actually make a magic item, but it's for their own use, not for sale...

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Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
Well, I first started talking about this combo before we learned that Steve was capping attributes at 42 (not counting wishes).
I thought it was 40, not 42.
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Old 06-18-2018, 12:50 PM   #37
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Default Re: The Staff & Quarterstaff combo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLV View Post
I thought it was 40, not 42.
Which thread was this in?
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Old 06-18-2018, 03:10 PM   #38
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Re: The Staff & Quarterstaff combo.

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Originally Posted by JLV View Post
You let people buy magic items? ...

I thought it was 40, not 42.
Hi JLV,
Yes, people can buy items. They will sometime sell items they have looted, at 1/4 to 1/3 market price to help raise funds, to order an item they need.

Yes you are right, I'll edit the mistake in my previous post. I'm still in shock that the new TFT has such a tight attribute limit.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 06-18-2018, 03:21 PM   #39
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Re: The Staff & Quarterstaff combo.

>> In the new TFT, attributes are capped at 40.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pyratejohn View Post
Which thread was this in?
Hi PyrateJohn,
It is the thread Steve Jackson started titled 'Experience Points'. The actual post is here...

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=13

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 06-18-2018, 03:42 PM   #40
JLV
 
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Default Re: The Staff & Quarterstaff combo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pyratejohn View Post
Which thread was this in?
The Experience thread, page 2.
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