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Old 10-17-2020, 08:12 PM   #11
Agemegos
 
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Default Re: Stop Spending Earned Character Points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alden Loveshade View Post
.

In real life, I'm not sure how much most people continue to improve, even in their primary skill. I saw a study of a number of famed musical composers based on what was considered their greatest work. Most achieved it after about 10 years of composition. The same is true of mathematicians and physicists. Most modern-day female gymnasts reach their peak by or before their early 20s.
And perhaps even more to the point, dramatic and literary characters in episodic series of procedural adventures, such as Sherlock Holmes, the Saint, Captain Hornblower, Captain Kirk, Batman and so on sometimes change with the times, but they seldom improve or learn. They are just as cunning, just such good seaman, when they are the third lieutenant on HMS Renown as when they are the rear admiral commanding HM ships and vessels in the West Indies.

Have you considered giving the superfluous experience points in the form of social advantages?
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Old 10-17-2020, 08:35 PM   #12
Tyneras
 
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Default Re: Stop Spending Earned Character Points

People do not improve infinitely. They improve until they can reliably succeed, then stop. If a single point in a skill (with TDMS and equipment bonuses) is enough, then that's as far as they will go, no matter how many hours they do something.

Impulse buys would be a good point sink, as well as other single use abilities like Favor.

But GURPS doesn't demand constant advancement either. Your character can simply stay as they are and continue to join in, though if the rest of the game assumes constant advancement this may eventually become an issue.
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Old 10-17-2020, 08:59 PM   #13
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Stop Spending Earned Character Points

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Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
And perhaps even more to the point, dramatic and literary characters in episodic series of procedural adventures, such as Sherlock Holmes, the Saint, Captain Hornblower, Captain Kirk, Batman and so on sometimes change with the times, but they seldom improve or learn. They are just as cunning, just such good seaman, when they are the third lieutenant on HMS Renown as when they are the rear admiral commanding HM ships and vessels in the West Indies.

Have you considered giving the superfluous experience points in the form of social advantages?
I'm not sure that's true of Hornblower, and more generally it's often belied by characters in long-running serial fiction where 'the character improves' can be a vital plot beat and 'but having previously encountered this in the minor side-plot six volumes earlier, the character knows just what to do' is a decent writing maneuver.

It's overwhelmingly true, of course, of the genuinely episodic series, where you could (and in some contexts, do) reshuffle the order of the episodes at random and encounter little or no disruption...
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Old 10-17-2020, 10:10 PM   #14
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Default Re: Stop Spending Earned Character Points

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Originally Posted by Tyneras View Post
People do not improve infinitely.
They improve until they can reliably succeed, then stop.
If a single point in a skill (with TDMS and equipment bonuses) is enough, then that's as far as they will go, no matter how many hours they do something.
Not sure I agree.

You automatically get "On the Job Training" while doing any job, meaning every 800 hours (100 work days, 20 five-day weeks) you get 1 character point to spend on skills used in your job.

Even at the top levels of skill that's 4 points to get +1 on your skill every 80 weeks.

If you work 40 weeks a year (12 weeks = 3 month vacation) that's +1 to skill every 2 years.

Work 20 year career = +20 to skill.

This is why we need B293 "Maintaining Skill" option for "extreme skills" because once it gets above IQ+10 to guarantee you won't lose your point you must do one of:
a) practise the skill 1 full hour (doesn't count as study)
b) use skill in the field
If you do neither then at end of day there's an IQ roll and if it fails it drops an ENTIRE LEVEL meaning lose ALL FOUR of the points you spent increasing it that level: all 80 weeks (2 years taking a seasonal vacation) LOST

The unfortunate thing is this means once you get to skill+10 metagamers are probably just going to buy up IQ instead any time they get bonus points, since that doesn't degrade. Even with "Special Training" UB perk surcharges to buy that above 20, 21 per level (11 per level if you ignore Will/Per) is still well worth "not gonna lose.

I don't think you can get "On the Job Training" for "using my IQ" though, so it sounds like bonus points (based on GM fiat not fixed "hours in") would be the only way to increase attributes.

It's just not the clearest since B124 "Cannot Learn" also fixes IQ/DX development which gives the impression you can "learn" improvements to IQ/DX, but I think B290 is referring to spending bonus points...

Although B292's Improvement Through Study says "“skills” refers not only to ordinary skills, but also to spells, techniques, and even some advantages" it references Learnable Advantages on B294 and Attributes aren't listed there...

If it were allowed, "suitable instructor" requirement (can't self-teach from books like w/ skills) per B293 aside from Teaching 12 (Learnable Skills IMPOSSIBLE w/o finding someone w/ that!) the two criteria sort of coalese into one, as with IQ there isn't really any difference between:
a) "must either know that skill at your current skill level or better"
b) "have as many or more points in the skill as you"
a) allows higher-IQ teachers w/ fewer points in skill to teach you
b) allows lower-IQ teachers w/ more points in skill to teach you

Since there's just an attribute, I would collectively understand that (assuming IQ were teachable at all) to be "must have IQ equal to or greater than your own"

I guess the benefit there (like w/ skills) is a pair of great minds (tied IQ) could just teach each other and increase skills/IQ indefinitely.

"Intensive Training" requires "higher level and more points" so I'd read that as "IQ must be 2 higher" (it would be +1 if "one or the other" so it's only fair to require +2 for both) to get the x2 rate.

Maybe something between Education/Intensive for a 1.5x rate if IQ is merely 1 higher. Like if the condition was "higher level or more points" which is still harder than the "same or same" req of Education.

Actually there might be more tiers... above "same and same" could be "same and higher OR more and same" but that might be tied to "high OR more" in terms of difficulty.
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Old 10-17-2020, 10:46 PM   #15
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Default Re: Stop Spending Earned Character Points

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Not sure I agree.

You automatically get "On the Job Training" while doing any job, meaning every 800 hours (100 work days, 20 five-day weeks) you get 1 character point to spend on skills used in your job.
That might be true if you are a GURPS player character.

It is not generally true of people.
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Old 10-17-2020, 11:31 PM   #16
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Default Re: Stop Spending Earned Character Points

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Originally Posted by GWJ View Post
And what exactly is the problem?

Maybe look at this?
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/p...ps/power-ups5/

I use it massively when I'm GMing in campaign "without character points development" (they develop only "accidentally", for example new language at broken level if they spend enough time among people who speaks that language, etc.) Social Engineering - Back to School is helpful for that sort of development.
This. In short, give the players something to spend their character points on other than character advancement. If a player still has areas where he wants to improve his character, he can spend his points on character advancement; if not, he can use them for Impulse Buys.
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Old 10-17-2020, 11:36 PM   #17
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Stop Spending Earned Character Points

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
That might be true if you are a GURPS player character.

It is not generally true of people.
I believe it is true, the issue is diminishing returns. It does not really matter if Bob the janitor acquires Housekeeping-25, as he will still be the janitor with IQ 10, and no amount of Housekeeping will really change that. Now, if he goes to school after work and becomes a plumber, then that will change his life for the better, but he will never go above a certain point unless he returns again to school and improves himself further.
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Old 10-17-2020, 11:37 PM   #18
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Default Re: Stop Spending Earned Character Points

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
That might be true if you are a GURPS player character.

It is not generally true of people.
Let me point out that there are some optional rules available that make it possible to lose skills through disuse; and the higher your skill, the more effort it takes to maintain it. Something like this could serve as a counterbalance to earning character points, as the better a character gets the more of his character point earnings need to be dedicated to maintaining existing traits and the fewer of them are available for making the character better.
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Old 10-17-2020, 11:58 PM   #19
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Default Re: Stop Spending Earned Character Points

If you don't want to dramatically improve the character for whatever reason, one option is to spent the points on social or meta advantages:

1. Sink points into Luck or Serendipity. Also consider other advantages that could plausibly be learned.

2. Put points into Wealth, Status, Contacts, Favors, etc. Again that expands the character's ability without altering core abilities.

One fictional example that comes to mind is Travis McGee. His abilities remain the same throughout his books, but as he gets older he seems to become more careful (Common Sense plus buying off Overconfident & low level Impulsiveness) and more secure financially (increased Wealth.)
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Old 10-18-2020, 12:46 AM   #20
Plane
 
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Default Re: Stop Spending Earned Character Points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
That might be true if you are a GURPS player character.

It is not generally true of people.
I'd like there to be some kind of mechanical incentive then...

Like perhaps if you are 'on the job training' you should be -2 to whatever job you're doing because of "2 things at once" ? So people would intentionally "not learn" to avoid the -2 penalty?

Another idea might be to give a lot of normal people something like +1 IQ (Switchable +10% Temporary Disadvantage: Cannot Learn -20%) [19]. This puts them in a "smarter zone" yet they can't learn while in it.

If you take -1 to IQ and then buy this limited IQ it's basically a "meta-trait quirk" you could call "-1 to IQ while learning".

To save another point (knock off 10%) you could apply Takes Extra Time 5 -50% to Switchable to reduce it to +5% (like Usually On but burning time instead of FP)

Then add "Accessibility: While conscious -5%) which turns the 30/32 Readies to Switch on into 30/32 Concentrates and automatically turns it off when you fall unconscious (which is fine, IQ/Per/Will is more useful when awake, though you could be vulnerable if attacked in your sleep?)

Cheaper still might be something like Maximum Duration (up to 1 hour -10%) to save another point: taking 5 minute breaks every hour is probably a good idea. You can voluntarily switch off your ability with half a minute's uninterrupted concentration prior to 1 hour to avoid the 5 minute downtime.

With those 3 enhancements you save 2 more points (3 total) but then we actually have a mechanical incentive for not enjoying the OTJ benefits: temporary inability to learn on an ability which is useful for work.

People might keep in that zone while working to perform best at their jobs in the short-term, yet limit their long-term advancement because they don't count hours on the job using that +1 IQ as 'study' even at the pathetic 8:1 ratio.

When work is done they can of course leave it switched off and spend their bonus points (except I don't know if NPCs even get those) gain "On the Job Training" while playing board games, etc.

Something like this would also explain how people might spend years in a certain culture but never learn the language or gain Cultural Familiarity, even though these are basically automatic OTJ (split between) you get for just EXISTING someplace: some people have some kind of "work zen" where they ignore the culture/language around them and thus do not passively learn it.
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