Limitation Creation: No Luck Use; Negative Consequences

[evileeyore]

So I'm looking to price two Limitations, one is "Cannot use Rerolls On Activation/Usage Rolls", basically what it says on the tin, no using Luck (or 'luck' like effects*) on Activation rolls. You roll to activate or use the ability and take your chances with that one roll.

I could simply limit any Luck or luck like Advantages with "Cannot Be Used On X", but this doesn't effect Impulse Buys and it's not as elegant a solution (IMO). Likewise this could be stretched/reskinned to apply to other roll affecting abilities (bonuses from other Advantages) and such (taking extra time).

The second is to add Negative Consequences to roll activated abilities that do not have negative consequences for failures or critical failures of the activation or use. The simplest example is Visualization, however something like Blessed (Heroic Feats) (Requires Religious Ritual Roll, -10%) has no drawback to failure. In this case a failed Visualization roll would apply a penalty based on the failure amount, with a Critical failure applying an amount equal to the maximum possible bonus and a failure (regular or critical) to activate Blessed would apply a penalty instead of a bonus for it's random duration.



* Luck and it's derivatives (Ridiculous, Super), Destiny, Daredevil, Impulse Buys, etc.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

one is "Cannot use Rerolls On Activation/Usage Rolls", basically what it says on the tin, no using Luck (or 'luck' like effects*) on Activation rolls. You roll to activate or use the ability and take your chances with that one roll.

I don't think I'd allow more than -5% for this, and only, of course, if the character had the option to reroll, either from having Luck, or Impulse Buys being a campaign option. Sure, being able to reroll a bad roll is nice, but I'd expect characters to only take this limitation on abilities they expect to be able to push to high success levels otherwise.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

The second is to add Negative Consequences to roll activated abilities that do not have negative consequences for failures or critical failures of the activation or use.

This one really depends on how negative those consequences are. If it's what I'd describe as "typical critical fail" level - e.g., you not only fail the roll, but the ability backfires or otherwise harms you, but not usually critically, I'd peg that at -5% as well. It seems in line with Nuisance Effect, which is -5% by default.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

I don't think I'd allow more than -5% for this, and only, of course, if the character had the option to reroll, either from having Luck, or Impulse Buys being a campaign option.

Given, having a 'luck' Advantage and access to Impulse Buys would be a necessity...

On reflection, I think I'd rather put the Limitation on the 'Luck' Advantage (Not Usable on X, percentage based on how often X is likely to be used). But No Impulse Buy at -5% sounds reasonable.

This one really depends on how negative those consequences are.

Take Visualization at IQ 10 as an example then. And then at IQ 15.

The first has a penalty of -1 to -8 (a roll of 11 to 18), the second a penalty of -1 to -3.

Blessed (Heroic Feat ST) on a failure would impose a penalty of -1d6 to ST for 3d6 seconds.

If it's what I'd describe as "typical critical fail" level - e.g., you not only fail the roll, but the ability backfires or otherwise harms you, but not usually critically, I'd peg that at -5% as well. It seems in line with Nuisance Effect, which is -5% by default.

This is more in line with Backlash... hmmm...

Backlash assess a -10% per -1 to IQ or DX, so say this is on Visualization...

If the average penalty is -2 (at IQ 15), that would be -20%. With Trigger set at "Rare" (it's equivalent to an Accessibility 1-6% of the time (likely failure rate at IQ 15 is like 3%) for -40%) that's -8%.

Pretty close to your call of -5%.

[kirbwarrior]

If you can't use luck effects on the roll, then probably -5%. But if nobody can, and you are thus protected against enemies with luck effects (or the dreaded Super Luck), I'd call it a feature.

I am surprised at you calling Daredevil a luck effect, it's more accurately a talent with a different type of limiter on what it affects.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

I am surprised at you calling Daredevil a luck effect, it's more accurately a talent with a different type of limiter on what it affects.

It's both. Specifically allowing rerolls on critical failures.

I actually classify it as a cross between Higher Purpose (another Talent type) and heavily modified Luck.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

It's both. Specifically allowing rerolls on critical failures.

I actually classify it as a cross between Higher Purpose (another Talent type) and heavily modified Luck.

I always forget about the fumble rerolls part, my bad (which is weird, because I know that's why I buy it XD).

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

If you can't use luck effects on the roll, then probably -5%. But if nobody can, and you are thus protected against enemies with luck effects (or the dreaded Super Luck), I'd call it a feature.

If it prevents anybody from affecting the roll, then yeah, I'd call it a +0% enhancement. If only you are prevented, then it's not a modifier of the trait at all, but a limitation on your Luck advantage(s), and "can't be used for one specific thing" is such a trivial limitation it's most likely -0% there too.

[Phil Masters]

One could logically consider "No use of advantage X" to be equivalent to a Temporary Disadvantage of negative value equal to the positive value of the advantage. So that'd make "No use of Luck" a -15% limitation (and "No use of Extraordinary Luck" -30%, et cetera). However, if you can use Luck just fine for everything else while the power is on, just not for activation rolls, that should decrease the value significantly; -5% is likely about right.

"Bad stuff happens when this power fritzes" sounds a bit like Temporary Disadvantage: Cursed, normally worth -75% but substantially reduced because it only happens on a failed activation roll. I'd fudge up some numbers based on the severity of the activation roll...

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

"Bad stuff happens when this power fritzes" sounds a bit like Temporary Disadvantage: Cursed, normally worth -75% but substantially reduced because it only happens on a failed activation roll. I'd fudge up some numbers based on the severity of the activation roll...

Seems like TD (Cursed (mitigator: successful activation roll)). I suppose for an activation roll that's equivalent to requires skill roll, that's a -3.75% limitation. Which honestly seems a little undervalued to me, just because usually failing an activation roll is often already pretty bad, piling on more disaster at a time things already don't look so good..., I might round it up to -5%.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

So I'm looking to price two Limitations, one is "Cannot use Rerolls On Activation/Usage Rolls", basically what it says on the tin, no using Luck (or 'luck' like effects*) on Activation rolls. You roll to activate or use the ability and take your chances with that one roll

I would put that as a limitation on the Luck.