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Old 10-01-2020, 08:55 AM   #11
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Default Re: Dagger used as main gauche

I read this as a descriptive clause, not a list. ITL pg 111 "The left-hand dagger, or main-gauche, acts as a shield..."

That is, it is describing the main-gauche as a left hand weapon. It is not listing all the weapons that can act as a shield. The point being, there is no "left-hand dagger" other than the main-gauche.

If you want a dagger in your left hand, then see rules for using two weapons. Without skills, it will be -6 DX for doing 2 attacks and no defensive bonus. See ITL pg 111.
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Old 10-01-2020, 12:25 PM   #12
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Dagger used as main gauche

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
I read this as a descriptive clause, not a list. ITL pg 111 "The left-hand dagger, or main-gauche, acts as a shield..."

That is, it is describing the main-gauche as a left hand weapon. It is not listing all the weapons that can act as a shield. The point being, there is no "left-hand dagger" other than the main-gauche.

If you want a dagger in your left hand, then see rules for using two weapons. Without skills, it will be -6 DX for doing 2 attacks and no defensive bonus. See ITL pg 111.
But ITL 41 (the two-weapon skill) explicitly mentions the dagger and also the main-gauche:

Quote:
Any character can fight with two weapons at once if one of the weapons is a dagger, main-gauche, or spike shield, or if some
combination like net-and-trident or two cesti is being used.
I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong, but it sure looks to me like the talent includes both dagger and main-gauche as possibilities for any fighter to two-hand. Hence, they don't come with a DX -6 penalty, but a DX -4.

Lars, of course, has a point that RAW is not entirely explicit on this. So far, the question hasn't really come up in my game anyway, so I doubt it makes a significant difference in play.
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Old 10-01-2020, 01:15 PM   #13
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Dagger used as main gauche

At the risk of being repetitive, I think the obvious answer is to declare any left handed dagger to be, functionally, a main gauche and just overlook the $10 and 5 oz. differences in listed properties.

Edit: I consider it a minor miracle that after ~2 years of online posts and errata we have a clear understanding of RAW for the main gauche; the last thing we need is to confuse the matter further by having different rules for something so similar that we would have difficulty defining the difference!
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Old 10-01-2020, 01:50 PM   #14
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Default Re: Dagger used as main gauche

Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
But ITL 41 (the two-weapon skill) explicitly mentions the dagger and also the main-gauche
Good point.
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Old 10-01-2020, 03:10 PM   #15
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Dagger used as main gauche

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Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
Good point.
I think it's a good point too, but it's Helborn who initially quoted the rule and gets the credit.
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Old 10-01-2020, 04:41 PM   #16
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Dagger used as main gauche

note the ITL p. 41 statement isn't really consistent with the section on left handed weapons on p.111; the former says fighting with two weapons is disallowed without the talent unless one is a dagger, main gauche or spike shield, whereas the latter says in that case you penalty is -6.


A related issue: what is the penalty for making a single attack with you left hand, not in combination with an attack with your right? I've played this game a long time and I'm not sure I've seen an official rule.

Last edited by larsdangly; 10-01-2020 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 10-01-2020, 05:01 PM   #17
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Dagger used as main gauche

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
note the ITL p. 41 statement isn't really consistent with the section on left handed weapons on p.111; the former says fighting with two weapons is disallowed without the talent unless one is a dagger, main gauche or spike shield, whereas the latter says in that case you penalty is -6.


A related issue: what is the penalty for making a single attack with you left hand, not in combination with an attack with your right? I've played this game a long time and I'm not sure I've seen an official rule.
I don't know an official rule, but obviously it comes up when fighters holding a torch in the left hand fight a beast.

I've been using a -4 DX penalty for these situations, figuring fighting off-hand isn't as bad as trying to strike with two weapons without training. I've also been assuming that in HTH, there is no penalty for using a main-gauche in the left hand. Both of these are my attempt to interpret the missing bits.
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Old 10-01-2020, 08:07 PM   #18
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Dagger used as main gauche

The LH attack is sort of an issue because there are several ways in which your RH can get disabled. I agree a flat -4 penalty makes as much sense as anything else. Though it seems silly to have such a penalty for a boxer's 'jab' when that is actually a high-odds attack. Personally, I think natural, simple sorts of motions (punches, kicks, dagger thrusts) should not have a favored handedness.

Once upon a time I feel like it was a stipulated in RAW that in HTH you could either do one attack (unarmed or with an allowed weapon) at +4, or two attacks at normal adjDX (two punches, two daggers, a punch and a dagger, etc.). I think this is still true in Legacy Edition, but somehow I find it harder to find the places in the text where this is spelled out in black and white.
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Old 10-01-2020, 10:56 PM   #19
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Default Re: Dagger used as main gauche

Legacy Melee pg 13 "A fighter may not use two daggers, or a main-gauche and dagger, in HTH combat."

I think the intent is you are grappling with the other hand.
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Old 10-02-2020, 06:28 AM   #20
hcobb
 
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacheco, California
Default Re: Dagger used as main gauche

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
Legacy Melee pg 13 "A fighter may not use two daggers, or a main-gauche and dagger, in HTH combat."
Thanks, noted as a difference.

http://www.hcobb.com/tft/legacy_first.html#Combat
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