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Old 09-26-2020, 03:31 PM   #1
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Beasts in HTH

I notice that some beasts have comments for how much HTH damage they do (cats and bears, for instance) while others do not (dogs, for instance).

I imagine a wolf is likely to try and knock down his opponent and enter HTH. What damage does he do? My initial thought is that he does the same that he does in regular combat, but I notice that the bear is explicitly described as doing the same damage in regular or HTH. This would be redundant if my interpretation were correct.
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Old 09-26-2020, 06:42 PM   #2
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Beasts in HTH

Animals don't get the +1 damage bonus that humanoids get in HTH and do the same damage as normal combat unless specified otherwise.
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Old 09-26-2020, 06:52 PM   #3
phiwum
 
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Default Re: Beasts in HTH

Thanks, Henry, that's what I figgered. It was just the redundancy in the description of bears that gave me pause.
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Old 09-30-2020, 03:14 PM   #4
Helborn
 
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Default Re: Beasts in HTH

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Animals don't get the +1 damage bonus that humanoids get in HTH and do the same damage as normal combat unless specified otherwise.
Actually - only fighters get the bonus, wizards don't.

ITL pg 122: A fighter in hand-to-hand combat does the appropriate amount of damage for his ST as above, plus 1 – that is, a ST 9 fighter does 1d-2 damage.
And, "A fighter using a dagger, cestus, or main-gauche does the damage appropriate to his ST on the above table, plus 3 . . . so a fighter with ST 9, using a dagger in HTH, would do 1 die damage."
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Old 09-30-2020, 04:16 PM   #5
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Beasts in HTH

It seems to me, looking at ITL 12-13, that he usual word for "not a wizard" is a "hero". Although "Fighters" are categorized on ITL 12-13, it seems to me there's no real mechanical weight there, and this forum is the first place I've seen people treat the +1 bare hand damage in HTH to be something that wouldn't apply to all humanoids.
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Old 09-30-2020, 04:48 PM   #6
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Default Re: Beasts in HTH

Melee rulebook page 18, ST 12 fighter does 1d-4 in HTH to Bear
page 21 Bear does 3d

Wizard rulebook page 19, ST 12 fighter does 1d-3 to adjacent Bear
WSRB page 8, Bear does 2d+2

ITL page 122, ST 12 fighter does 1d-2 to adjacent Bear
and 1d-1 in HTH
page 91 puts even cave bears at 3d-1 in HTH
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Old 09-30-2020, 06:36 PM   #7
Helborn
 
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Default Re: Beasts in HTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
It seems to me, looking at ITL 12-13, that he usual word for "not a wizard" is a "hero". Although "Fighters" are categorized on ITL 12-13, it seems to me there's no real mechanical weight there, and this forum is the first place I've seen people treat the +1 bare hand damage in HTH to be something that wouldn't apply to all humanoids.

I have never played - from the beginning - with the +1 in HTH applying to a wizard character. In my group, the term "fighter" was the most used generic term for a non-wizard, even though "hero" is the correct term in ITL. Probably, the usage came about because in Death Test and Death Test 2 non-wizard's are invariably referred to as "Fighters". In Tollenkar's Lair they were "thugs" and "bravos". We always just used Fighters and Wizards rather than Heroes and Wizards.
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Old 10-01-2020, 03:54 AM   #8
Steve Plambeck
 
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Default Re: Beasts in HTH

I agree "Fighter" with a capital "F" is a reference limited to non-wizard characters or (elsewhere in the rules) "Heroes", but "fighter" in lower case I've always taken as a reference to any character fighting another.

It's impossible to write a wargame or RPG while avoiding the same generic terminology you also co-opted to name your game elements. The word "turn" is another great example of something that gets used all the time without actually referring to what elsewhere may be defined as the Melee Turn, Combat Turn, or Game Turn. If you subtract every word from the language because it was used to name one thing one time, you end up being unable to write anything without resorting to obscure synonyms and creating ugly text.
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Old 10-01-2020, 09:30 AM   #9
Axly Suregrip
 
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Default Re: Beasts in HTH

I agree ITL 122 statement "A fighter in hand-to-hand..." statement seem left open to interpretation.

In RAW, before the Legacy rerelease if I am using RAW correctly, the "Fantasy Masters' Screen" has a "Damage based on Strength" table that states "Any Combat: wizard/+0, fighter/+1". It also lists "HTH Combat: ... dagger/+2...". And clubs at +2 and +3 for 1 and 2 handed. Advanced Melee list clubs as +3 and +4. The old Fantasy Masters Screen was trying to clarify the rules. That is, it saw a difference between fighters (non-wizards) and wizards in HTH and in use of clubs.

In the Legacy "GM Screen", the new screen, it has no trace of Wizard vs Fighter. Clubs do +3 or +4. Nor any trace of a +1 for "figthers" however you would define a fighter.

So within the Legacy rules (ITL and GM Screen) there is no consistency.

In RAW it used to have a +1 for non-wizards in HTH or the RAW GM screen was in error. In Legacy it appears they were trying to get rid of it, or they just forgot to put it on the GM Screen.

Also note, that it says "A fighter with an Unarmed Combat talent...". If you are reading "fighter" as non-wizard, this would mean that wizards with UC talents get no advantage from the talent.

The bottom line for me is: I will assume the new GM screen forgot about the +1 HTH bonus and also I will assume this +1 HTH bonus applies to all humanoids. It was just saying the chart is your punching value in standard combat and the in HTH you do a little more damage with that punch.

Last edited by Axly Suregrip; 10-01-2020 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 10-01-2020, 11:22 AM   #10
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Beasts in HTH

If one assumes that the word "fighter" is meaningful and excludes wizards... what does define a fighter? Is it just NOT being a wizard? Does a teenage girl get the +1, but not Hermione Granger, because she's a wizard? How about a scholar or other human with no weapon talents? What if the wizard has a weapon talent?
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