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Old 04-19-2018, 05:25 AM   #51
johndallman
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Default Re: High defenses in 4th edition

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Originally Posted by Daigoro View Post
... with attack 14 vs defense 12, you're probably better off going with two Telegraphic Attacks for skill 18, defense 14, thus avoiding the defender's crit chance going up, instead of two rounds of Feint + Attack.
Televraphic Attack specifically does not increase the chance of critical success.
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Old 04-19-2018, 05:30 AM   #52
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: High defenses in 4th edition

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Originally Posted by weby View Post
No. it dies NOT ignore it. it SPECIFICALLY includes it.

The 3.73 is the average of all the "attacker success-defender success" results where attacker succeeds more than the defender.
Not according to my calculation* or to the googledoc you linked** I think?

*I did it as follows:

Skill roll %chance MoS Mos*%Chance

14 18 0.46% 0 0
14 17 1.39% 0 0
14 16 2.78% 0 0
14 15 4.63% 0 0
14 14 6.94% 0 0
14 13 9.72% 1 0.0972
14 12 11.57% 2 0.2314
14 11 12.50% 3 0.375
14 10 12.50% 4 0.5
14 9 11.57% 5 0.5785
14 8 9.72% 6 0.5832
14 7 6.94% 7 0.4858
14 6 4.63% 8 0.3704
14 5 2.78% 9 0.2502
14 4 1.39% 10 0.139
14 3 0.46% 11 0.0506

Total n/a 99.98% n/a 3.6613

(edit sorry can't do tables)

That's just straight MoS against Skill ignoring the other person's MoS's it's pretty much the same as yours (so see below)


**your 1.68 figure was the expected average MoV for the attacker calculated as the total of the probability of all positive results for the attacker - the defenders MoS where the net result was still positive for the attacker. Which is I think is what Case 1 should be?


Actually I think it make sense that 1.68 / 0.45 = 3.73 as that 0.45 is the constant chance of the attacking winning by 1+ MoS (whis is the same as the defender getting 1 or less MoS than them) not just over all but also as an average for each combination of results, so it takes into account the Defenders MoS when there are less by 1+ (i.e I think you have to apply it not just when deciding does the Attacker win over all, but also when calculating the average MoS the attacker wins by when they win)

I think the problem here is this isn't a symmetrical field of probability, you have subdivisions within it where different rules apply for the end result.


e.g Defender wins by more, the MoV doesn't matter for calculating expected net result, but the attacker wins by more then MoV des matter for calculating expected net result



Look at it this way if you are saying the 3.73 figure includes the limiting effect of the defenders of equal skill's MoS, then by definition that means you think just on a straight unopposed Skill test against 14 the average MoS will be rather greater than 3.73, because the effect of any MoS by the defender reducing it is removed.


Is this the case?


If it is, what is your figure for calculating just the average MoS on just a straight unopposed Skill check against 14?

Last edited by Tomsdad; 04-20-2018 at 03:43 AM.
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Old 04-19-2018, 05:46 AM   #53
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Default Re: High defenses in 4th edition

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Originally Posted by weby View Post
Well, the stats are pretty low for the power level due to limitations, with dex ranging from 14 to 20.

But enhanced dodges are 2,2,4,6,6
and weapon skills: 43, 31, 44, 35, 46

The weapon skills are mostly due to massive points in the skill: with the melee tank having 303 points in knight!(+24 points waiting until he can learn more) and the melee damage dealer 204 points in sword!.
The swashbuckler type only has 85 points in smallsword and the mage only has 32 points in smallsword...
Huh, I'm guessing Deceptive attack comes up alot?


Skill 43 (basic parry 24) -26 Deceptive attack = no change in hit chance but drops parry to 13.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 04-19-2018 at 05:55 AM.
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Old 04-19-2018, 10:07 AM   #54
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Default Re: High defenses in 4th edition

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
TBH given the variable nature of conflicts I'm just as happy to to give animals a high skill to allow them to deal with variables (it does kind of depend on the animal though, I'd allow a wolf more allowance here than an ant)
I fully do agree. Some animals deserve more detail than others. Especially when they are important for the adventure. If I had to write a scenario with "La bête du Gévaudan" (The Beast of Gevaudan), for instance, I would surely detail its character sheet as much as for any other important NPC.

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Sorry, TM = Technique mastery.
OK. They don't have it, except Ambush Predators, which have Technique Mastery (Springing Attack).
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Old 04-19-2018, 01:41 PM   #55
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Default Re: High defenses in 4th edition

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Indeed or even "slightly higher".. :)

In my current campaign the PCs have(unbuffed):
1) Dodge 23, parry 29f (swashbucker/thief/bard swiss army knife)
2) Dodge 21, parry 30, block 28 (melee tank)
3) Dodge 22, parry 26 (melee damage dealer)
4) Dodge 22, Parry 19 (wizard)
5) Dodge 21, Parry 23 (Gunslinger)

So all the characters have above 20 dodge and the melee characters closer to 30 parry.

And of course the opponents often have similar values(or in case of single one meant to challenge whole group even higher)
What point values are those built on?

When the game specified that (shooting) skill 14 is equivalent to a federal agent and 18 is the best of a generation... I realize things are different in DF but that isn’t regular GURPS....
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Old 04-19-2018, 03:43 PM   #56
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Default Re: High defenses in 4th edition

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What point values are those built on?

When the game specified that (shooting) skill 14 is equivalent to a federal agent and 18 is the best of a generation... I realize things are different in DF but that isn’t regular GURPS....
It should be noted that those values you state are low for lot of GURPS content with DF skills usually over 20 at start and action not far behind

---

The campaign is started at 100 points+disads and is currently are at 3118-3483 points for the characters.

The basic point award is one point/hour of play and then some bonus points for completed quests. We had session 302 today and a typical session is 8-9 hours with few longer ones.

The whole campaign is about 60% though the story arc of how after the end of the second era new gods rose to fill in the ranks to replace the gods killed in the cataclysmic wars at the end of it.

They are currently in early minor godhood with the two top ones having slightly more than 10 000 followers so a lot of the points are in things like allies and such.
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Old 04-19-2018, 03:46 PM   #57
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Default Re: High defenses in 4th edition

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Huh, I'm guessing Deceptive attack comes up alot?


Skill 43 (basic parry 24) -26 Deceptive attack = no change in hit chance but drops parry to 13.
Deceptive attacks, feints+deceptive attack combos, ganging up on enemies, flanking, magic debuffs, disappearing in plain sight to try to attack unseen, attack types that do not allow parry and much much more...
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Old 04-19-2018, 09:02 PM   #58
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Default Re: High defenses in 4th edition

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Originally Posted by weby View Post
---

The campaign is started at 100 points+disads and is currently are at 3118-3483 points for the characters.

The basic point award is one point/hour of play and then some bonus points for completed quests. We had session 302 today and a typical session is 8-9 hours with few longer ones.

The whole campaign is about 60% though the story arc of how after the end of the second era new gods rose to fill in the ranks to replace the gods killed in the cataclysmic wars at the end of it.

They are currently in early minor godhood with the two top ones having slightly more than 10 000 followers so a lot of the points are in things like allies and such.
Out of curiosity, has anyone died? (One of the things that keeps point totals down in our campaigns is PC mortality.)
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Old 04-19-2018, 11:40 PM   #59
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Default Re: High defenses in 4th edition

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
Televraphic Attack specifically does not increase the chance of critical success.
Whoops, so it doesn't. Might have to look at Committed Attacks then instead.
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Old 04-20-2018, 12:16 AM   #60
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: High defenses in 4th edition

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Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
I fully do agree. Some animals deserve more detail than others. Especially when they are important for the adventure. If I had to write a scenario with "La bête du Gévaudan" (The Beast of Gevaudan), for instance, I would surely detail its character sheet as much as for any other important NPC.
Yep I agree


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Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
OK. They don't have it, except Ambush Predators, which have Technique Mastery (Springing Attack).
Ah OK I admit I thought they came up more than that (but then it only has to if the underlying skill is dropped I guess). Springing attack is an appropriate use though IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by weby View Post
Deceptive attacks, feints+deceptive attack combos, ganging up on enemies, flanking, magic debuffs, disappearing in plain sight to try to attack unseen, attack types that do not allow parry and much much more...
heh, I guess you need to fling it all at defences like that!

Last edited by Tomsdad; 04-20-2018 at 02:30 AM.
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