Grappling

[Bullettop]

Hi all, I am a little shaky on grappling in GURPS and wondering if you could help me make sure I am on the right track. It seems that you only make a real attack roll to initiate a grapple. After that it looks to me like most of the grappling "attacks" (neck snap, take down, pin, etc...) boil down to a quick contest rather than a true attack roll. Am I understanding this right? I know it says a grappled person is at -4 to DX, and the skills related to DX, but I am taking this to mean that the -4 applies to attacks from others outside the grappling match (2 on 1), or from strikes made by one of the grapplers (punching/kicking while grappling). While we are on this subject, I am thinking active defenses are used against strikes from inside or outside the grappling match, but for grappling techniques like wrench limb the quick contest is all you roll, and the defender's active defense is just figured into the quick contest. For actions after a grapple and actions after being grappled (p. 371) what if both combatants are grappling each other? Like a wrestling match. How do I determine who is the grappler and the grappled? I suppose this could be determined by a quick contest of skills to determine who has the upper hand, but where in the sequence would that occur? Sorry, if this has been asked before, but The grappling rules and techniques are very fragmented and spread out between Campaigns and Martial Arts.

[mlangsdorf]

Under the standard rules, grapples are not assumed to be mutual. If I grapple you, you have a -4 to all DX rolls (including your own rolls to grapple me) until you break free. If you want me to be at -4 to DX, you need to successfully grapple me. If I have you grappled and you do not have me grappled, I do not suffer any penalties to DX when I want to punch you.

Does that help at all?

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Bullettop

It seems that you only make a real attack roll to initiate a grapple. After that it looks to me like most of the grappling "attacks" (neck snap, take down, pin, etc...) boil down to a quick contest rather than a true attack roll. Am I understanding this right?

Yes. The initial grapple needs an attack roll versus an Active Defense. Resolving the "actions after a grapple" is usually just a Contest. Active Defenses won't usually figure into those at all. Most of the Contests are based on ST or a grappling skill.

I know it says a grappled person is at -4 to DX, and the skills related to DX, but I am taking this to mean that the -4 applies to attacks from others outside the grappling match (2 on 1)

The penalty applies to anything the grappled target tries to do, until he can break free.

I am thinking active defenses are used against strikes from inside or outside the grappling match

Yep.

what if both combatants are grappling each other?

Then they'll both have a -4 DX penalty. (It's likely that one of the things you'll want to do after being grappled it grapple back. If not, it's probably because you're planning to break free, or else you're just so bad at unarmed combat that you'd rather soak all the penalties while trying to execute some sort of close combat attack.)

How do I determine who is the grappler and the grappled?

Both parties can be grappler and grappled. When it matters, I'd read "grappler" as the character whose turn it is.

The grappling rules and techniques are very fragmented and spread out between Campaigns and Martial Arts.

You forgot Technical Grappling :)

[Bullettop]

Thank you, that does help a lot. I was trying to wrap my head around the grappling rules. Striking is not much different than regular melee combat, but grappling is a little unique. I've spent hours trying to compile the various entries into one set of notes. Just wanted to make sure I had it right. Oh, and yes, I did forget to include Technical Grappling, 😊, thanx.

[Bullettop]

Another thing I was thinking about was choke/strangle vs. choke hold. I took choke/strangle to be an unskilled choke with two hands squeezing the victim's throat from the front, like you would see in an old Frankenstein movie. I read that as, after the choke is established the victim takes crushing damage HP to his neck and the -1 FP/turn for suffocation starts on the victim's next turn, and doesn't stop until the victim breaks free, or the aggressor let's go. However, the aggressor can do additional damage, on subsequent turns, by winning another quick contest, thus doing the crushing damage again. To me this represents, tightening his grip or otherwise wrenching the victims throat. The -1FP/turn for suffocation runs concurrent to any additional crushing damage.
By contrast, choke hold represents a skilled combatant. This technique offers the option of doing FP damage instead of HP damage. The victim still takes suffocation damage and crushing damage accrued by winning the quick contest on the initial turn and subsequent turns, but the aggressor can convert this to FP rather than HP. Additionally, choke hold offers the +3 ST to prevent break free and for other quick contests, such as tightening your grip. Do I have this right?

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by Bullettop

By contrast, choke hold represents a skilled combatant. This technique offers the option of doing FP damage instead of HP damage. The victim still takes suffocation damage and crushing damage accrued by winning the quick contest on the initial turn and subsequent turns, but the aggressor can convert this to FP rather than HP. Additionally, choke hold offers the +3 ST to prevent break free and for other quick contests, such as tightening your grip. Do I have this right?

I think you may be misreading the choke hold rules, but they're slightly confusing.

Attacker Turn 1: Attacker attempts a chokehold. Target may defend (by tucking his chin if nothing else). If the attack hits and the defense fails, the attacker has a grapple and a chokehold on the target.
Target Turn 1: Target may attack the attacker (at -4 for being grappled) or Break Free. Attacker has +5 to ST to resist the break free attempt, as usual when using two hands to grapple.
Attacker Turn 2: Attacker applies the chokehold. This is a Quick Contest of ST +3 versus ST or HT. On a win, target takes the attacker's margin of victory as crushing or fatigue damage to the neck with DR protecting normally.
Target Turn 2: Target may attack or break free. He loses 1 FP on each of his turns as long as he is in the chokehold.
Attacker Turn 3+: Attacker can continue applying the chokehold, inflicting margin of victory damage every time he does and wins the contest.
Target Turn 3+: Target can continue taking actions after being grappled while losing FP.

A chokehold has 3 advantages over choking someone:
1) Single attack to grapple and apply the chokehold, while a choke requires a grapple to the neck followed by an attempt to choke.
2) Bonus to ST to determine damage in the quick contest.
3) Choice of fatigue damage or crushing damage.

[Bullettop]

Thanx Miangsdorf. I think my last post may have been unclear, I was basically trying to say what you said, I think. My main question was if choke/strangle could apply additional crushing damage on subsequent turns for tightening your grip, the way you can with choke hold.

I looked at the 2 again

Choke/strangle turn (p. 370)
Turn 1) Grapple foe by the neck, applying hit location penalties at 1/2 for grappling {roll against DX or grappling skill}
Turn 2) Apply strangulation by winning a quick contest of ST vs. St or HT. Applying crushing damage for margin of victory to HP.
-Victim suffers -1FP/turn for suffocation beginning on his next turn.
*Note I am ignoring the victim's actions for the sake of brevity.

Choke hold (MA p. 69)
Turn 1) Establish choke hold. -2 to Judo or -3 to Wrestling. Additional -1 if attack from front {collar choke} no modifier for attacking from behind {rear naked choke}.
Turn 2) Apply pressure on next turn by winning a quick contest of ST +3 vs. St or HT . Damage can be either FP or HP. (MA p. 69).
- Victim takes Suffocation damage -1FP/turn, begginging on his next turn.

It seems like both take the same number of turns to begin applying damage (crushing or otherwise), but I do see the subtle difference in attacking with the choke hold immediately as opposed to grappling by the neck before beginning to strangle. Basically, different defense options for the victim.

Do I Understand this correctly?

[Yako]

Do not forget that you can still attack normally while grappling and being grappled, with certain restrictions which are all listed in the basic book.

For example, it is perfectly valid to grapple a foe to the claw, punch or bite him (but you have to release a hand from holding your foe most likely) and make use of his now lower parry an inability to retreat.

But most of the "grappling moves" are quick contests, with pinning a foe being a regular contest instead, but, well, pinning someone is really damn useful, so it is only fair.

[Bullettop]

Thank you all for your responses