Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-22-2018, 02:35 PM   #1
Joe
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Using Weapon Master with Innate Attacks

A quick question for the hivemind. I think there's a simple answer somewhere, but my GURPS-fu is failing me. Thanks in advance!

Let's say I have Weapon Master (All Swords). If I pick up a sword, I get the benefit of Weapon Master. Simple.

But let's say that I'm a Weapon Master who has a special sword, and for various reasons I've built that sword not as Signature Gear, but as an Innate Attack, defined as a sword (probably with some combination of Gadget limitations, ST-based, etc; I don't think the specific build matters for this purpose).

Q1) By RAW, do I get the benefits of Weapon Master when using this Innate Attack, just because I've defined it as a "sword"? It seems to me that the strict answer is and ought to be "no" (but I could be wrong).

Assuming the answer is "no"...

Q2) Is there an enhancement I can use to pay properly for the privilege of getting Weapon Master benefits with my Innate Attack?

Thanks for any help that people can offer!
__________________
My (ahem... hugely entertaining... ahem) GURPS blog: The Collaborative Gamer

Last edited by Joe; 10-22-2018 at 02:49 PM.
Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2018, 02:40 PM   #2
khorboth
 
khorboth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Denver, CO
Default Re: Using Weapon Master with Innate Attacks

I don't know about RAW, I think it's a gray area.

If I were the GM, I would probably allow you to get all the benefits EXCEPT DAMAGE.

Since the main cost factor of innate attack is damage, allowing what amounts to a multiplier on that damage for a fixed cost seems like cheating. Everything else, the parrying, the reduced penalties for multiple attacks, the access to cinematic maneuvers, etc. I would allow.
khorboth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2018, 03:05 PM   #3
Kelly Pedersen
 
Kelly Pedersen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
Default Re: Using Weapon Master with Innate Attacks

I'd probably allow the benefits of Weapon Master to apply to your sword-like Innate Attack. You have, after all, paid a pretty decent cost in points for the benefits of Weapon Master, and it does make sense. I might charge a perk, just to keep you honest. Also, I'd be pretty strict about what constituted a "sword-like Innate Attack". It would have to be cutting/impaling damage, and not very many dice of damage over your ST, either - 1d or 2d at absolute most, I think. No swinging around a 10d + sw burning attack and claiming its a sword. :-)
Kelly Pedersen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2018, 03:28 PM   #4
roguebfl
Dog of Lysdexics
 
roguebfl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Melbourne FL, Formerly Wellington NZ
Default Re: Using Weapon Master with Innate Attacks

ST Based Innate Attacks that have been defined as an item the matches the Weapon Master does indeed stack, just like you can Swap out Brawling skill for the matching Weapon skill for using the Innate Attack so defined.
__________________
Rogue the Bronze Firelizard
Gerald Grenier, Jr. Hail Eris!
Rogue's Weyr
roguebfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2018, 04:00 PM   #5
evileeyore
Banned
 
evileeyore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
Default Re: Using Weapon Master with Innate Attacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe View Post
Q1) By RAW, do I get the benefits of Weapon Master when using this Innate Attack, just because I've defined it as a "sword"? It seems to me that the strict answer is and ought to be "no" (but I could be wrong).
Yes because it's a) a ST-based melee attack and b) defined as a sword.
evileeyore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2018, 04:21 PM   #6
Hide
 
Hide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Default Re: Using Weapon Master with Innate Attacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe View Post
A quick question for the hivemind. I think there's a simple answer somewhere, but my GURPS-fu is failing me. Thanks in advance!

Let's say I have Weapon Master (All Swords). If I pick up a sword, I get the benefit of Weapon Master. Simple.

But let's say that I'm a Weapon Master who has a special sword, and for various reasons I've built that sword not as Signature Gear, but as an Innate Attack, defined as a sword (probably with some combination of Gadget limitations, ST-based, etc; I don't think the specific build matters for this purpose).

Q1) By RAW, do I get the benefits of Weapon Master when using this Innate Attack, just because I've defined it as a "sword"? It seems to me that the strict answer is and ought to be "no" (but I could be wrong).

Assuming the answer is "no"...

Q2) Is there an enhancement I can use to pay properly for the privilege of getting Weapon Master benefits with my Innate Attack?

Thanks for any help that people can offer!
Hello Joe,

By RAW, definitively not. I was in your situation, (and that was my answer).

Then, I got pyramid #3/65 Alternate GURPS III.

It features natural weapons, and (more or less) it works using innate attacks (plus/or other paraphernalia, LOL) to make them work as weapons (via weapon skills, acquiring benefits from weapon master, etc.).

So, natural weapons has got everything you need to build and employ this “special sword” you described.

Take a look at that issue, it’s very cool; let me quote an excerpt for you:

“The default skill to use with a Striker or a Natural Weapon is Brawling (or Innate Attack, if you took the Ranged enhancement). If the GM agrees, you may rely on Karate to inflict further damage using natural melee weapons with reach C (per GURPS Martial Arts, p. 57). For other variations, the GM may allow you to take the Weapon Adaptation perk (see GURPS Power-Ups 2: Perks, p. 8) to benefit from a different skill or from such traits as the Weapon Master advantage.”

- Hide
Hide is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2018, 05:52 PM   #7
Joe
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Using Weapon Master with Innate Attacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hide View Post
Hello Joe,

By RAW, definitively not. I was in your situation, (and that was my answer).

Then, I got pyramid #3/65 Alternate GURPS III.
...
Yes! You sir, are exactly right. Thanks for the reference - now, looking back through my collection, I find it there, clear as day.

Thanks to everyone else for your answers, also! (Actually I think all the answers I've received here are pretty plausible/playable, so it's a win all round)
__________________
My (ahem... hugely entertaining... ahem) GURPS blog: The Collaborative Gamer
Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2018, 09:55 PM   #8
Celjabba
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Luxembourg
Default Re: Using Weapon Master with Innate Attacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
No swinging around a 10d + sw burning attack and claiming its a sword. :-)
Agree. You need WM(not heavy saber) in that case ;)

For me, if you use the sword skill for your IA (which is allowed by RAW) and it does behave like a sword (melee based, can parry,... the answer is clearly yes.
Celjabba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2018, 11:17 PM   #9
evileeyore
Banned
 
evileeyore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
Default Re: Using Weapon Master with Innate Attacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe View Post
... I don't think the specific build matters for this purpose...
Coming back to this as I missed this line earlier.

Specific build does kind of matter. There is a vast difference between...

Burning Sword [14]: Innate Attack [12] (Cutting 2d [14]; Melee (C,1), -20%; No Blunt Trauma, -20%; No Knockback, -10%; ST based +30%) AA [2] (Impaling 1d [8]; Melee (C,1), -20%; No Blunt Trauma, -20%; ST based +30%)

Burning Sword [27]: Innate Attack [24] (Cutting 2d [14]; No Blunt Trauma, -20%; No Knockback, -10%; ST based +100%) AA [3] (Impaling 1d [8]; No Blunt Trauma, -20%; ST based +100%)


Both can be called a 'sword'. One can only hit foes you could normally reach in melee, the other is a "dancing" sword that can strike foes down up to 100 yards away.



Personally, I don't care if it's a 1d burning attack.... as long as it's melee and ST Based... and as Celjabba said, "if it behaves like a sword, it's a sword".



(And actually I'd probably allow the ranged Burning Sword to get Weapon Master benes if it was a thrown attack...)
evileeyore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2018, 09:37 AM   #10
weby
 
weby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Default Re: Using Weapon Master with Innate Attacks

As others have said, it depends on the GM.

But just wanted to say that I allow it in my games, currently two of the five player characters have innate attack based "summonable" swords without any gadget based and weapon master. They still get full benefits of weapon master to them as they are defined as being swords and function close enough to such.

The two weapons are:

Illusionary smallsword: Innate Attack (Impaling) 3d - Armor Divisor (3), +100%; ST based, +100%; Melee attack, -30%; Low signature (Visible and heard as a normal sword), +10%; Dual (Generates two melee weapons), +10%.

Sword of Fire:Innate Attack(Burning) 3d - Armor Divisor (5), +150%; PM: Fire, -10%; Melee attack: 1,2 (as one or two handed sword), -20%; Strength based, +100%; Affects insubstantial, +20%; Works underwater, +20%.
__________________
--
GURPS spaceship unofficial errata and thoughts: https://gsuc.roto.nu/
weby is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.