Middle Earth Characters

[Hobgoblin]

Originally Posted by middlearthenthusiast

1. How you stat each race. Ie how much stronger are numenoreans than average humans, should elves have higher DX on average, etc.

Numenoreans and elves are both essentially superhuman. Both should be higher in all three stats than normal Men.

One way to achieve 'balance' in an adventuring party - if that matters - would be to give an ordinary PC retainers or henchmen as compensation for the higher points total of the superhuman types. So, you could create one of the Dunedain or a well-to-do gentlehobbit travelling with his gardener and cousins or a Breelander and his companions or a single elf. It strikes me that TFT is very well suited for that sort of thing, as the highly tactical combat works really well with henchmen.

[Chris Rice]

Originally Posted by Hobgoblin

Numenoreans and elves are both essentially superhuman. Both should be higher in all three stats than normal Men.

One way to achieve 'balance' in an adventuring party - if that matters - would be to give an ordinary PC retainers or henchmen as compensation for the higher points total of the superhuman types. So, you could create one of the Dunedain or a well-to-do gentlehobbit travelling with his gardener and cousins or a Breelander and his companions or a single elf. It strikes me that TFT is very well suited for that sort of thing, as the highly tactical combat works really well with henchmen.

They're not superhuman, they're just much longer lived, therefore in TFT terms their attributes will be higher because they've had longer to gain experience.

[Chris Rice]

I also don't think that Orcs are hard to Stat in TFT. Their ST will be as for men or perhaps less for smaller Goblins. Theyre tough and hardy so I'd give them Running and Toughness Talents, but I feel their weapons and armour will be crude compared to elves and men, so won't count for any more than Leather though it may be heavier to wear and their weapons are clumsier and more prone to breakage (just my view).

In the books, the focus is on the heroic characters of the fellowship, who are unusually capable people and armed with fine or magical weapons and armour. It's not surprising they often cut down an Orc with one blow. (Bear in mind it only takes 8 hits to knock down an opponent, and said opponent may be more inclined to crawl away than stand up for more punishment).

TFT works well for LOTR with a bit of thought, so don't be put off.

[Hobgoblin]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

They're not superhuman, they're just much longer lived, therefore in TFT terms their attributes will be higher because they've had longer to gain experience.

They are a bit superhuman, no? I mean, elves can run on thick snow without sinking into it, and without feeling cold, and so on. Isn't there something about them not needing to sleep too?

And the Numenoreans are much taller (and, one would deduce, accordingly stronger) than normal Men, as well as living for hundreds of years. So, they're superhuman in that they're physically superior to real people and their Middle Earth analogues. i'm pretty sure that they're supposed to be mentally superior too, though I'd have to dig for quotes.

But yes, for both, their long lives would give them plenty of time to earn experience. One way or another, both would have unusually hefty starting packages in TFT terms.

[Chris Rice]

Originally Posted by Hobgoblin

They are a bit superhuman, no? I mean, elves can run on thick snow without sinking into it, and without feeling cold, and so on. Isn't there something about them not needing to sleep too?

And the Numenoreans are much taller (and, one would deduce, accordingly stronger) than normal Men, as well as living for hundreds of years. So, they're superhuman in that they're physically superior to real people and their Middle Earth analogues. i'm pretty sure that they're supposed to be mentally superior too, though I'd have to dig for quotes.

But yes, for both, their long lives would give them plenty of time to earn experience. One way or another, both would have unusually hefty starting packages in TFT terms.

If you've read the Simarillion, you'll find that the race of men are capable of matching any of the feats of the Elves or Numenoreans. See the deeds of Hurin, Turin and others in that book. So the way I see it is that the best of men can easily match these others in prowess of strength and battle ( if perhaps not in craft of metalworking, etc). So the only advantage I see of the Elves and Numenoreans is that of time.

[Hobgoblin]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

I also don't think that Orcs are hard to Stat in TFT. Their ST will be as for men or perhaps less for smaller Goblins. Theyre tough and hardy so I'd give them Running and Toughness Talents, but I feel their weapons and armour will be crude compared to elves and men, so won't count for any more than Leather though it may be heavier to wear and their weapons are clumsier and more prone to breakage (just my view).

My quibble with big goblins (e.g. the Uruk-hai) as equivalent to men is that it would leave the half-orcs and Uruks mechanically identical, when they clearly have pronounced physical differences - and, consequently, different military functions.

That's a neat solution - mail counting as leather - but Tolkien does say that Orcs are good weapon-smiths:

"Hammers, axes, swords, daggers, pickaxes, tongs, and also instruments of torture, they make very well, or get other people to make to their design ..."

We see evidence of quite elaborate Orcish craftsmanship in LotR (Grishnakh's dagger), and Frodo or Sam suggests that Orc-mail is quite protective. And - for example - the Isengard Orcs seem to be technologically ahead of the Men of Dunland.

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

In the books, the focus is on the heroic characters of the fellowship, who are unusually capable people and armed with fine or magical weapons and armour. It's not surprising they often cut down an Orc with one blow. (Bear in mind it only takes 8 hits to knock down an opponent, and said opponent may be more inclined to crawl away than stand up for more punishment).

Those are good points - but we see an awful lot of Orcs killing other Orcs with single blows - or single arrows. And ordinary Men do quite a bit of this too. They might simply be rolling a huge amount of threes or fours to get all those rolling heads, but it strikes me that you'd get a much more Tolkien-esque sort of combat by keeping Orcish ST low and giving them exemptions to use their typical weapons - thus reflecting both their small stature and their apelike strength.

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

TFT works well for LOTR with a bit of thought, so don't be put off.

I agree entirely with this! My view would be that a bit of thought can give you a more Tolkienesque flavour to the combat than the "balanced duel of equals" that seems to be the TFT default - and which always seems to me to be a bit more sword-and-sorcery-ish than Tolkien-esque.

It would also make encounters with Orcs a little more distinctive than, say, encounters with Dunlendings or Haradrim.

Anyway, apologies for all the pedantry - I love a good Tolkien discussion, and I think trying to translate literary representations of combat into game mechanics is quite a good game in itself!

[Hobgoblin]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

If you've read the Simarillion, you'll find that the race of men are capable of matching any of the feats of the Elves or Numenoreans. See the deeds of Hurin, Turin and others in that book. So the way I see it is that the best of men can easily match these others in prowess of strength and battle ( if perhaps not in craft of metalworking, etc). So the only advantage I see of the Elves and Numenoreans is that of time.

Ah, but hang on! Hurin, Turin, etc., are Edain - so they're Men and elf-friends from before Numenor (a gift to the Edain from the Elves). They're not the "lesser Men" that the Numenorians find when they return after the fall of Numenor.

There's a consistent theme in Tolkien of peoples (Men, Elves, even Orcs) becoming "lesser" as time passes; the Edain are the Men of the heroic past, and so they'd be supermen compared with Third Age Breelanders or Dunlendings or whatever.

And the Dunedain at the end of the Second Age (and thus into the Third Age) are clearly "supermen" in some senses. Tolkien tells us that they're extremely tall and strong; and at the Gladden Fields, even "great Orcs" are only able to kill them with a five-to-one loss ratio.

It's precisely that sort of thing that would incline me to tweak the rules a bit for full Middle Earth flavour.

[Chris Rice]

Originally Posted by Hobgoblin

Ah, but hang on! Hurin, Turin, etc., are Edain - so they're Men and elf-friends from before Numenor (a gift to the Edain from the Elves). They're not the "lesser Men" that the Numenorians find when they return after the fall of Numenor.

There's a consistent theme in Tolkien of peoples (Men, Elves, even Orcs) becoming "lesser" as time passes; the Edain are the Men of the heroic past, and so they'd be supermen compared with Third Age Breelanders or Dunlendings or whatever.

And the Dunedain at the end of the Second Age (and thus into the Third Age) are clearly "supermen" in some senses. Tolkien tells us that they're extremely tall and strong; and at the Gladden Fields, even "great Orcs" are only able to kill them with a five-to-one loss ratio.

It's precisely that sort of thing that would incline me to tweak the rules a bit for full Middle Earth flavour.

I both agree and disagee with this. Whilst those of previous ages SEEM a level of power above those of the third age, the stories of those times focus on the exceptional persons. I feel there were exceptional persons in the third age also: Beorn, Aragorn, Boromir, etc.

Of course, everyone's reading of the stories is a personal one, so you'll have to fit your games to your own vision. But I think TFT can easily accommodate LOTR.

[middlearthenthusiast]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

I both agree and disagee with this. Whilst those of previous ages SEEM a level of power above those of the third age, the stories of those times focus on the exceptional persons. I feel there were exceptional persons in the third age also: Beorn, Aragorn, Boromir, etc.

Of course, everyone's reading of the stories is a personal one, so you'll have to fit your games to your own vision. But I think TFT can easily accommodate LOTR.

I’m having a lot of fun following this thread! Do you guys just limit the talents and spells for the PC’s to ones that fit in Middle-earth?

Anyone want to try statting a Witch-King or Beorn? Super curious how that could look.

[Chris Rice]

Originally Posted by middlearthenthusiast

I’m having a lot of fun following this thread! Do you guys just limit the talents and spells for the PC’s to ones that fit in Middle-earth?

Anyone want to try statting a Witch-King or Beorn? Super curious how that could look.

In regards to your first question: I think most TFT Talents will fit into LOTR settings as they are. There are a few, like mechanician and gunpowder weapons that might need to be cut out or modified, but basically the Talent system will work as is.

Spells may need more work, depending on how you see Magic in LOTR. I probably wouldn't change it much, as I can accept that Gandalf, Elves and others were doing "spell like things" in the stories.

As to statting the major antagonists, I haven't gone there yet.