Something that occurred to me while watching Always Sunny...

[Matthias Wasser]

The assumed model is that Superiors assign missions to Servitors, hopefully subtly competing ones, and mayhem ensues.

But probably the primary motivation for any group of demons is having fun, and mayhem is more or less the starting point.

[tHEhERETIC]

I'm not sure I agree, I think it depends on the Superior. Sure, Baal and Asmodeus are concerned with the big picture, with winning the War and coming out on top of all the other Demon Princes in the process. I doubt either of them is keen on mayhem at all. But Belial? Saminga? I doubt either of them cares about subtly competing or even competing at all. Their one thought is to their Word, and the rest of the world can, uh, go to Hell. I figure the rest of Hell isn't even on their radar until they attack.

But then I've been focusing on AA's, so I haven't read the DP books in a long time.

[JCD]

Mmm. Half and half. The DP deeply care about their Words (natch).

The demons assigned? Well, they care as much as it offers them the most safety, fun and rewards for a given amount of hassle. Which is why Asmodeous and Baal need to have incredibly micromanaging systems and Belial and Lilith can go lassiez faire.

[Matthias Wasser]

Originally Posted by JCD

The demons assigned? Well, they care as much as it offers them the most safety, fun and rewards for a given amount of hassle.

By "groups of demons" I meant PCs, yeah.

[JCD]

Originally Posted by Matthias Wasser

By "groups of demons" I meant PCs, yeah.

I mean all of them!

[ladyarcana55]

Believe me, the group I was running refused to play anything BUT angels, but oh my lordy...who could tell they were playing angels? Even the problems caused by Dissonance and their Superiors and higher ranking folks effectively smacking them upside the head did nothing to dissuade them

[Azel]

I guess it makes sense in broad strokes. Angels live to serve others, and demons live to serve themselves. However, competing visions in Heaven on how to serve necessitate a cohesive "chain of command" to be a social control. Whereas, competing visions in Hell on how to get away with whatever they want necessitates another, more appropriate, "chain of command" to be a social control.

(and I still say ladyarcana is a living saint to be patient with her group of angelic flunkies. obviously something was lost in the translation of what In Nomine is about. at least that's my charitable assessment...)

[ladyarcana55]

Originally Posted by Azel

(and I still say ladyarcana is a living saint to be patient with her group of angelic flunkies. obviously something was lost in the translation of what In Nomine is about. at least that's my charitable assessment...)

What's really funny, when I was trying to explain to them how angels are supposed to act in the game, they would tell me

"Angels aren't like that!"

"How many do you know?"

[Azel]

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

What's really funny, when I was trying to explain to them how angels are supposed to act in the game, they would tell me

"Angels aren't like that!"

"How many do you know?"

Yes, the RPG college of GM cardinals must be processing the appeal for your beatification as we speak...

Without derailing this topic too much, I am curious what their conception of angels is like? In part it relates to this idea that "celestials are out to cause mayhem." Something is being lost in the translation between IN core and what players are visualizing. The setting is incredibly flexible (or loosely defined), but how does this get confused for permitting boundary-crossing PC behavior?

What are potential GMs selling for this game, and what sales pitch new players are actually hearing? Are people only hearing greater PC powers and assuming a "traditional" adversarial relationship with the GM? I mean, yeah IN could be played as a Superheroes game, but outside of a one-shot it loses quite a bit of setting gravitas. At that point there's other systems that do Supers games better. How are people missing the essential assumptions of the game? I thought it was clearly spelled out myself.

Something's not clicking between us and new players. I wonder if one has to read the fiction more before worrying about mechanics. Or maybe the players' lack of GM trust and lack of PC responsibilities from other systems leads to setting confusion. Years of D&D/WoD abuse leads to lowered expectations?; players stuck in the mindset "cause atrocity and outrun the consequences as standard operating procedure"? Maybe I am too stuck in RPG actor gamer mode and I'm having trouble understanding other gamer motivations.

[Archangel Beth]

Or read the right fiction. It could be argued that there's a lot of "celestials cause mayhem" in the core rules' vignettes, for instance. If, on the other hand, someone wants to run a quieter sort of game, the GM might want to look at something like http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~maya/nomine/maher2.html -- there's a little mayhem, and talking, and whatnot, but I think the talking and investigation predominates over the mayhem. O:>