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Old 02-18-2011, 01:18 PM   #181
Ze'Manel Cunha
 
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
AoA: Determined with Ranged weapons only gives a +1.
Ah, ok, so less generous, still, looks to me like the option for an All-out-Aim, for that +1, would be more realistic.
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:26 PM   #182
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
Ah, ok, so less generous, still, looks to me like the option for an All-out-Aim, for that +1, would be more realistic.
I'm still not sure what you are talking about. Aim is already basically All-Out. You lose the benefits of Aim if a whole host of conditions occur (Tactical Shooting page 14), including attempt a defense roll, and you only actually benefit from it if you make an AoA: Determined. What would your All-out-Aim do that's different?
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:30 PM   #183
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
I'm still not sure what you are talking about. Aim is already basically All-Out. You lose the benefits of Aim if a whole host of conditions occur (Tactical Shooting page 14), including attempt a defense roll, and you only actually benefit from it if you make an AoA: Determined. What would your All-out-Aim do that's different?
Not let you defend because you're so caught up in Aim that you're not going to dodge or parry during the Aim.
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:36 PM   #184
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
Not let you defend because you're so caught up in Aim that you're not going to dodge or parry during the Aim.
If you also use the rule on page 17 for evasive movement, Aim isn't one of the permitted maneuvers.
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:48 PM   #185
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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If you also use the rule on page 17 for evasive movement, Aim isn't one of the permitted maneuvers.
And even in the Basic Set, Aim is only marginally compatible with any active defense. If you defend in any way during an Aim, it becomes effectively a Do Nothing. That isn't quite as bad as All Out, but it's close.
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Old 02-18-2011, 02:34 PM   #186
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
And even in the Basic Set, Aim is only marginally compatible with any active defense. If you defend in any way during an Aim, it becomes effectively a Do Nothing.
In fact, it becomes a retroactive Do Nothing on all your previous aim actions, as well.
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Old 02-18-2011, 03:01 PM   #187
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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In fact, it becomes a retroactive Do Nothing on all your previous aim actions, as well.
Without the benefits of Do Nothing. You don't automatically pass consciousness checks for instance.
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Old 02-19-2011, 02:14 PM   #188
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
It's the same difference of +1 you gain from AoA Ranged by giving up your defenses, does AoA completely replace Attack in your experience?
No, its not the same, because Aim, unlike Attack, is already retroactively negated by defending. So, while it makes some sense in the existing rules to Attack when you have a significant likelihood of needing to defend, it makes no sense with the existing rules to Aim when you are likely to need to defend.

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Also from a realistic point of view the AoA (Double) Aim/Attack is something which shooters do all the time. (Either that or people commonly have Extra Attack in order to Aim and Attack the same second, which I don't buy.)
I disagree. I think what "shooters do all the time" that might be described in non-GURPS language as a quick aim and attack is actually, in GURPS terms, what Tactical Shooting calls Sighted Shooting, which doesn't involve an Aim.
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Old 02-19-2011, 02:36 PM   #189
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Originally Posted by cmdicely View Post
I disagree. I think what "shooters do all the time" that might be described in non-GURPS language as a quick aim and attack is actually, in GURPS terms, what Tactical Shooting calls Sighted Shooting, which doesn't involve an Aim.
This. Individuals may disagree, but Hans does his homework, and we had a lot of real operators on the playtest. Using the sights does not equal a GURPS Aim maneuver, and point shooting/unsighted shooting, sighted shooting, and aimed fire are explicitly described in GURPS terms.

Remember as you read TS that it's very explicitly mapping reality on to GURPS rules, with very little of a nod to the other way (what would real-world operators call an Aim followed by an Attack? No idea, since that's not how they're trained).
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Old 02-19-2011, 03:27 PM   #190
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Originally Posted by cmdicely View Post
No, its not the same, because Aim, unlike Attack, is already retroactively negated by defending. So, while it makes some sense in the existing rules to Attack when you have a significant likelihood of needing to defend, it makes no sense with the existing rules to Aim when you are likely to need to defend.
Additionally if you use the rules for evasive movement, you cannot do that at all while Aiming, so the only defenses you get while aiming are against Melee.
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