Beam Weapon & Laser Sights

[Zorbil]

Hello everyone. I've been having a bit of confusion regarding beam weapons recently, particularly those of the laser variety. I have no qualms with their high Acc stat: damage traveling at the speed of light with no drop-off should benefit from a moment of aiming. However, I have a few questions on some of the details.

1) At TL9+, laser sights and other features come standard on weapons. Do the weapon statistics in UT reflect this automatic inclusion, or would aiming with the laser sight activated provide an additional +1 to the listed values? If the former, what Acc bonus should a player receive when they choose not to use the laser sight?

2) A +1 seems low when the laser sight is showing exactly where the beam will hit. The only difference between the dot and the damage is the steadiness of the player's hand when they squeeze the trigger. That clearly is why there is a skill roll, but balance concerns aside, +1 does not seem right. Are there any official rules re: this issue?

[Langy]

A laser sight doesn't add to Acc. It gives a straight +1 to hit, no matter if the person aims or not.

It's only a +1 to hit because you still need to point the weapon in the correct direction.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Zorbil

Hello everyone. I've been having a bit of confusion regarding beam weapons recently, particularly those of the laser variety. I have no qualms with their high Acc stat: damage traveling at the speed of light with no drop-off should benefit from a moment of aiming. However, I have a few questions on some of the details.

1) At TL9+, laser sights and other features come standard on weapons. Do the weapon statistics in UT reflect this automatic inclusion, or would aiming with the laser sight activated provide an additional +1 to the listed values? If the former, what Acc bonus should a player receive when they choose not to use the laser sight?

Laser sights come standard on most TL9 guns (see Smartgun Electronics, UT149) but their effects are not included in the weapon stat lines. Laser sights don't actually provide any Acc bonus, but instead a +1 skill bonus if the target is within 1/2D range and the laser frequency is visible to the shooter. As a skill bonus, this applies whether he Aims or not, and unlike reflex sights will function even if shooting from the hip (if using the more detailed rules from Tactical Shooting).

2) A +1 seems low when the laser sight is showing exactly where the beam will hit. The only difference between the dot and the damage is the steadiness of the player's hand when they squeeze the trigger. That clearly is why there is a skill roll, but balance concerns aside, +1 does not seem right. Are there any official rules re: this issue?

Something that was added in HT (which came out after UT) is that knowing the target range gives a considerable bonus to hit, up to +3 for something like a laser rangefinder. It is implied in UT that combining a Laser Sight with a HUD Link (which requires a HUD visor or similar set up) provides this same functionality, so in addition to +1 skill you could give them another +3 Acc for the rangefinder effect. Of course, this would be true for both firearms and beams. I think the ease of pointing beam weapons is mostly just factored into their base Acc. For more realism, that Acc might be capped at some value based on the sighting method used, but that's a complicated can o' worms.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Something that was added in HT (which came out after UT) is that knowing the target range gives a considerable bonus to hit, up to +3 for something like a laser rangefinder. It is implied in UT that combining a Laser Sight with a HUD Link (which requires a HUD visor or similar set up) provides this same functionality, so in addition to +1 skill you could give them another +3 Acc for the rangefinder effect. Of course, this would be true for both firearms and beams.

I do not think this is correct, most beam weapons do not suffer from windage or projectile drop, and the high Acc is supposed to be partially due to this.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

I do not think this is correct, most beam weapons do not suffer from windage or projectile drop, and the high Acc is supposed to be partially due to this.

And any gravitational bending effect effect your line of sight to the target as well. ye3ah Trick shots with Parallax!

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

I do not think this is correct, most beam weapons do not suffer from windage or projectile drop, and the high Acc is supposed to be partially due to this.

What do you think is incorrect? As I said in my post:

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

I think the ease of pointing beam weapons is mostly just factored into their base Acc. For more realism, that Acc might be capped at some value based on the sighting method used, but that's a complicated can o' worms.

At present, Acc combines the inherent accuracy of the weapon (hitting a consistent point at range) with the accuracy of the sights (ability to get that point on the target). For realism's sake, there's only so accurate you can be with iron sights. To hit at long ranges should require a scope, even if the weapon has an Acc of a dozen or more. This may be tangential to the question at hand though.

EDIT: Okay, I see what you're saying now. Rangefinders may be less important for beams weapons because they aren't as affected by range-dependent conditions (wind etc).

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Zorbil

2) A +1 seems low when the laser sight is showing exactly where the beam will hit. The only difference between the dot and the damage is the steadiness of the player's hand when they squeeze the trigger. That clearly is why there is a skill roll, but balance concerns aside, +1 does not seem right. Are there any official rules re: this issue?

The scope also shows exactly where the beam will hit (at least for high energy lasers), since light takes the same path from the target to the shooter as from the shooter to the target. It would be similar to a single lens reflex camera, where the viewfinder shows exactly what will be on the film. This would already be factored into the Acc stat.

Note that this does not necessarily hold for higher frequency lasers (x-ray, gamma ray) or for particle beams. These are +1 TL though (at least), so it is reasonable to assume that at this point computer assistance processes the information to display to you exactly where the beam will hit anyway*.

Luke

* Except that particle beams are known to have atmospheric instabilities, which make the beams veer off in random wonky directions. Whether this can be overcome in real life is an open question. In a game with particle beam weapons, presumably this problem has already been solved.

[Sam Cade]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

For realism's sake, there's only so accurate you can be with iron sights.

Long range BPCR (black powder cartridge rifle) shooters routinely shoot out to 1,000 yards or more. With irons.

http://longrangebpcr.com/ImagePage.a...Targets600.jpg

Apparently, one of the members of the American team, General T. S. Dakin, had a bit too much champagne with his lunch and did very poorly at 1,000 yards. He had three (3) misses out fifteen shots at 1,000 yards. His poor performance almost cost the U.S. team the match.

Fortunately, another member of the American team, H. Fulton, a 29-year old surveyor, put on an outstanding performance to help make up for Dakin’s indiscretion. Fulton scored 36 bullseyes and 9 centres in his 45 record shots — with not a single miss. His final score, out of a possible 180 points, was 171!

http://www.longrangebpcr.com/TCFacts.htm

[vierasmarius]

Hmm... for lasers at least, would it make sense for a Laser Sight to provide a bonus (on un-Aimed shots only) equal to some fraction of Acc, rather than just +1?

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

Long range BPCR (black powder cartridge rifle) shooters routinely shoot out to 1,000 yards or more. With irons.

Wow. It boggles my mind that they can even see the target at that distance. But then, I'm pretty nearsighted, so my impression of what normal viewing distances are may be skewed. I thought that 300yd was the practical limit for sighting human-sized targets, at least under combat conditions.