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Old 03-28-2017, 01:40 PM   #41
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Default Re: Martial art for a Navy SEAL (b. 1989, Lubbock, TX)

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
His name is Mack Gibson, he was born in 1989 in Lubbock, TX.

Does anyone have a suggestion what Mack Gibson might be into?
Straight out of Lubbock?

Either he disdained "chop-socky" as a kid and was into Boxing and Wrestling, or he loved the movies of Jet Li and Jackie Chan and followed in their footsteps and learned Wu-Shu (Li) or Hapkido* (Chan).


* And then Karate, Judo, Taekwondo, Jeet Kun Do, etc... Jackie has an eclectic mix of martial arts under his belt.
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Old 03-28-2017, 02:01 PM   #42
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Default Re: Martial art for a Navy SEAL (b. 1989, Lubbock, TX)

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Straight out of Lubbock?
Mack Gibson is very white. Also raised religous by parents who don't believe in evolution or global warming. He may have been home-schooled. The only reason he didn't drive a pick-up with a Confederate flag and a gunrack in it would be that he was too poor to afford that pick-up.

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Either he disdained "chop-socky" as a kid and was into Boxing and Wrestling, or he loved the movies of Jet Li and Jackie Chan and followed in their footsteps and learned Wu-Shu (Li) or Hapkido* (Chan).
From the time Gibson was four and until he was twelve, Walker, Texas Ranger was on. And Chuck Norris was definitely an American, which probably makes Karate and Taekwondo sufficiently American.

Back in the late 80s and early 90s when I watched Chuck Norris movies, I never knew anything about his background in other Korean martial arts, like Tan Soo Do, or even that he'd trained Judo or BJJ. To me, Chuck Norris was the greatest karate and taekwondo expert on screen, not a grappler and certainly not someone who did Korean martial arts I didn't hear about until decades later. It may, of course, have been different in the US.

I don't know how well received 'Walker, Texas Ranger' was in Texas, though.

If taking courses in martial arts he'd seen on TV would be too expensive, maybe Gibson was a boxer, as you say. It fits him well enough.

The problem is that while I've got this image of an inner city boxing gym in my head where tough, strong-willed and active boys who might have potential are trained for free, on the chance that they might become prospects, I don't know how well that applies to the most rural suburbs of Lubbock, Texas.
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Old 03-28-2017, 04:43 PM   #43
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Default Re: Martial art for a Navy SEAL (b. 1989, Lubbock, TX)

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From the time Gibson was four and until he was twelve, Walker, Texas Ranger was on. And Chuck Norris was definitely an American, which probably makes Karate and Taekwondo sufficiently American.
Awwwww yeah.

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I don't know how well received 'Walker, Texas Ranger' was in Texas, though.
Doesn't matter. Even if it was cheesily wrong in it's portrayal of Texas, if Gibson loved it, that's all that mattered.

I'd definitely go this route. (I forgot that show even existed as I never liked Chuck Norris very much)

Quote:
The problem is that while I've got this image of an inner city boxing gym in my head where tough, strong-willed and active boys who might have potential are trained for free, on the chance that they might become prospects, I don't know how well that applies to the most rural suburbs of Lubbock, Texas.
Even if it was a rural 'burb of Lubbock, it was still a rural 'burb in the 90's. While it might not have the 30 something gyms Lubbock now sports, it would have had at least 20+ a mere 25 years ago.
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Old 03-28-2017, 07:07 PM   #44
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Default Re: Martial art for a Navy SEAL (b. 1989, Lubbock, TX)

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Awwwww yeah.

Doesn't matter. Even if it was cheesily wrong in it's portrayal of Texas, if Gibson loved it, that's all that mattered.

I'd definitely go this route. (I forgot that show even existed as I never liked Chuck Norris very much)
Well, even if we assume Gibson was inspired by Chuck Norris, that doesn't necessarily give us enough to go on. Memetic badass status aside, Norris is a dedicated martial artist who has spent a lifetime studying and being interested in a wide range of martial arts. In his late seventies now, he's still adding new knowledge and a couple of years ago became a 3rd degree black belt in BJJ under Machado. For that matter, he's been training BJJ since 1986.

Chuck Norris competed in karate tournaments that were the predecessors to both full-contact karate and to American kickboxing. In game terms, what Style should one give someone who trains karate for full-contact sport purposes under American rules and/or kickboxing under American rules?

If someone has competed in American full-contact karate, American kick-boxing and 'regular' professional boxing, what Style Familiarities does he need?

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Even if it was a rural 'burb of Lubbock, it was still a rural 'burb in the 90's. While it might not have the 30 something gyms Lubbock now sports, it would have had at least 20+ a mere 25 years ago.
True.

I was looking at it more from an economic angle, though. If someone looks capable of becoming one of the top one hundred in his state, I don't think this will ever yield him any income if he competes in karate kumite tournaments. And while MMA is beginning to pay in the 2010s, to someone in 2000 it would not seem likely to ever become a valid profession, especially for someone who might not ever be truly world-class, but might do for the level below it.

By contrast, being a professional boxer is a time-honoured profession for economically disadvantaged boys in the US. Even if someone will never be among the ten or perhaps even hundred best in his weight class, he can still make enough money from a lucky break or two to yield a windfall or two to a speculative trainer.

I'm not saying that the average professional boxer makes a lot of money*, but simply that to someone in the years 1999-2007, it would be a plausible, realistic path to one day making more money than you could at other careers that were open to someone who didn't have any academic prospects, union connections or even employment opportunities much above minimum wage.

Until, of course, Gibson had the bright idea to join the Navy. Hardly the first low-income kid to join the military to better his prospects, not even the first Gibson to do so. Granted, most of them who did so from Lubbock probably joined the Army, what with the nearest ocean being almost 500 miles away.

I guess Gibson was really into being a Navy SEAL and didn't consider Rangers, Special Forces or anything else an acceptable substitute. Maybe he was really affected by Michael Biehn's heroic SEAL team commander in The Rock.**

*Many of the respectable journeymen who never compete for titles, but are necessary so that the title fighters can have good looking records, may be only an injury away from starving. Of course, when fighting regularly, during that period while they are still healthy, they are still making good money from the perspective of someone whose alternative is working at a couple of dollars over minimum wage per hour.
**Who wasn't? "You know goddamn well I can't give that order!" Pure melodramatic macho porn.
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Old 03-28-2017, 07:41 PM   #45
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Default Re: Hobby Martial Art for Character Growing up in San Jose, CA (b. 1982)

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If she was at all interested in getting some philosophy behind it or just hobbying on the cheap*, there are Wah Lum Temples in San Jose... They teach Tai Chi and Kung-Fu.

They also do an after-school program for the younger kids, and at least locally are free for Latchkeys kids (partially subsidized by the county school system as part of the Latchkey program).

* They focus on a more "traditional" study system, so some students in return for lesser cost or free lessons do extra chores around the temple helping to maintain it (like coming by on weekends to weed the gardens or scrub/paint walls or fix the plumbing).
In GURPS terms, what Style Familiarities? Kung Fu is a very broad term that covers dozens of styles in GURPS and what is taught under the name 'Tai Chi' can describe anything from a health dance to a moderately serious martial art.

Note that by contrast to Mack Gibson, Adeline Wong as raised pretty affluent. Fairly successful urban middle-class vs. 'too poor to paint, too proud to whitewash' lower-class. Both her parents some sort of college-educated professionals, not likely to matter what kind (though who knows?).

That being said, I expect that Wong would have been a latchkey kid. Might have had a grandmother looking in on her and her brothers or even living with them, but her parents worked a lot.

Her personality hasn't been established much and what I pretty much do if I have to decide something about an NPC is roll 3d, with low numbers meaning 'strongly no', average results being close to the median for what has been already established about the character (median for the area s/he comes from if nothing is established) and high rolls meaning 'strongly, yes'. That is, I'll guessimate how common something would be and roll 3d for where the NPC falls on that range.

Since I'm doing prep-work as an Assistant GM, for a campaign where I am also playing, I can't just decide on a whim to make NPCs with certain hobbies, personalities or dislikes (or likes). Most importantly, if it is an issue that would logically affect how the NPC would react to any PC, an adventuring situation that is likely to come up or something like that, I have to make a decision based on what is most likely, rather than deciding based on something else and risk having it favour my PC unjustly.

While I'm not giving up anything on who survived Jewell Island, I'll take an example based on the characters who are alive where we are in the write-up. I can't have federal agents or military personnel who are assigned to future mysterious events alongside hypothetical survivors like Chase Taylor or Dr. Anderson who happen to be, say, football fans who love Southern accents and find the illicit thrill of a criminal record adds spice to a man or rabid fans of abnormal psycology, dream studies and stage magic.

Well, I am allowed to do that, sometimes, but only if such NPCs appear in believable proportions with how common they would be in real life. Which is easiest to do by estimating probabilities and rolling randomly.

Having random people on the Internet make suggestions doesn't seem any less valid as a method of deciding on some such things, especially when it is something that would only add interest to the NPC and not unduly benefit any PC or a specific scheme by a given player.

What has already been established about Wong, apart from what was already said, are several things. One is that she has a brother in the Air Force and respects patriotism, military service and heroism to the point of reacting to positively to Reputations for military decorations earned for valour to the same extent as servicemen would do.

Another is that she strongly values education, discipline and hard work, being very judgmental of people she feels are ignorant and uneducated. She doesn't judge minorities too harsly for not having had educational opportunities, but is dismissive of the idea that Americans of European background can be economically disadvantaged to the same degree, to the point that she has Intolerance (White Trash).*

Wong is very urban and doesn't have a lot of experience with rural people, trailer parks or any of the numerous sub-cultures of economically disadvantaged people of European background, so she's mostly basing this off negative stereotypes in media and might reconsider upon getting to know some actual people from poor areas.

So far, nothing in the sparse notes for Wong indicates whether she is Christian, agnostic, atheist or adheres to another religion or philosophy. Or if that sort of thing matters to her at all. Anyone who has an opinion on it, especially if combined with suggestions for what kind of martial art she might be into, will be listened to.

*Very relevant when the character was first conceived, when it become possible that after Jewell Island, Onyx Rain might send people to take exhaustive statements from everyone who survived, as this means that her reaction to Chase Taylor will be strongly negative. Depending on which of his traits apply to a given NPC, his reaction modifier with them varies between +12 to -4 or so, assuming that there is no prior relationship (most of that variation is whether Born Field Soldier and Stalker Talents apply, but there are also Reputations, Social Stigmas and Quirks). Generally, combat arms and especially special operations personnel tend to love Taylor if they get to know him in a context where his gifts are apparent, but educated types who do not hunt, aren't soldiers and who dislike poor grammar and/or rednecks might dislike him. Wong would react to him at -2.
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Old 03-28-2017, 11:05 PM   #46
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Default Re: Hobby Martial Art for Character Growing up in San Jose, CA (b. 1982)

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If someone has competed in American full-contact karate, American kick-boxing and 'regular' professional boxing, what Style Familiarities does he need?
Boxing and then... eh...

Depends. Honestly I'd roll a d4 and see what comes up: Te*, Shotokan**, Goju Ryu, or Kyokushin.

I left Isshinryu off the list as it de-emphasizes high line kicks, and you mentioned kickboxing tournies.

* Not in it's "ultimate style" form, but with a truncated Technique list: Aggressive Parry, Back Kick, Counterattack (Karate), Elbow Strike, Hammer Fist, Kicking, Knee Strike, Leg Grapple, and Sweep (Karate). This would represent a more "generic" karate style, one that may have formed from taking different styles including military martial arts.

** Shotokan is pretty much the generic style of the USA. Like if you were to just blindly walk into any karate dojo in the US chances are very high it's a variant of Shotokan being taught there.

Quote:
Until, of course, Gibson had the bright idea to join the Navy. Hardly the first low-income kid to join the military to better his prospects, not even the first Gibson to do so.
Right. If in his adolescence he was thinking "I'ma gonna be a boxer" then just go with Boxing and then some Military H-to-H (which would represent the "generic" karate style he learned in his youth being molded more firmly by his military training. Maybe throw a few non-Fairbairn techniques in that he's remembered from his former life). If however in his youth he knew pretty much he was destined for the military (maybe his Dad and Grandpa or uncles were ex-Navy) then he might have taken more chop-socky to be like Chuck (in which case give him one of the above 4 styles and then toss in teh following if not already covered in his style: Judo, Knife, Stealth, Choke Hold, Disarming (Judo), Neck Snap, and Targeted Attack (Knife Thrust/Neck) as "out of style" skills/techniques. Or just also give him Fairbairn Close Combat Training).

Quote:
Granted, most of them who did so from Lubbock probably joined the Army, what with the nearest ocean being almost 500 miles away.
In my experience people go into the Navy for 3 reasons:

1 - The lure of exotic ports.
2 - The lure of advanced technological training (the nuke program, advanced electronics, etc)
3 - They made a terrible, terrible error.

Since Gibson isn't likely to have made choice number 2, that leaves 1 and 3... which aren't incompatible choices.

Quote:
I guess Gibson was really into being a Navy SEAL and didn't consider Rangers, Special Forces or anything else an acceptable substitute. Maybe he was really affected by Michael Biehn's heroic SEAL team commander in The Rock.**
It's entirely possible he joined for the lure of exotic ports and then found a passion in the SEALs. I have a friend that went in for the lure of advanced radio comms and discovered he loved blowing stuff up and the grueling life of a SEAL.



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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
In GURPS terms, what Style Familiarities? Kung Fu is a very broad term that covers dozens of styles in GURPS and what is taught under the name 'Tai Chi' can describe anything from a health dance to a moderately serious martial art.
Master Pui Chan who founded the American Wah Lum Temples was the sixth generation master of the Wah Lum Pai Tam Tui Northern Praying Mantis style.

So there you go, Mantis Style Kung Fu.

Note, when I trained at the local temple I never knew what style of kung fu they taught as I went there for Naginatajutsu and the kung fu looked pretty generic to me. But then I wasn't involved in those classes and didn't pay rapt attention to their form.


The Tai Chi they teach isn't meant as a combat form, but taken alongside the kung fu? It could easily be one.

It's purely exercise until one reaches a certain point/desire to "go past this point"*. And then they train in more earnest and get the option to learn some weapon forms. For instance my master taught not only the Naginatajutsu, but the spear forms for Tia Chi and the staff forms of the Kung Fu, and I often spared against her other students and picked up some staff and spear training.


* And they have to be pretty dedicated and prove themselves to be "good and proper students". It was likely the same for the kung fu students, but then the Tai Chi classes were going on at the same time as my classes so a mixing of the students and cross discussion happened more frequently than cross class discussions with the kung fu students who met there on different days (except the staff guys, they came in on the same days as the Nag classes).

There was no such requirement for the Naginatajutsu students. We were there to learn to swing a length of wood with a sword on the end and that was that. Granted, there were also no free Naginata courses offered, so that might have been a difference?

Quote:
So far, nothing in the sparse notes for Wong indicates whether she is Christian, agnostic, atheist or adheres to another religion or philosophy. Or if that sort of thing matters to her at all. Anyone who has an opinion on it, especially if combined with suggestions for what kind of martial art she might be into, will be listened to.
Wah Lum is a bit more traditional, even in the modern era, and so part of Wah Lum teaching is to learn and "embrace" Buddhism, at least enough to be a good student and not be a disruption in the temple.

Sifu Nancy also taught us Bushido, but didn't require it's practice. She was rather more thoroughly modern.

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Old 03-29-2017, 03:04 AM   #47
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Default Re: Hobby Martial Art for Character Growing up in San Jose, CA (b. 1982)

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Boxing and then... eh...

Depends. Honestly I'd roll a d4 and see what comes up: Te*, Shotokan**, Goju Ryu, or Kyokushin.

** Shotokan is pretty much the generic style of the USA. Like if you were to just blindly walk into any karate dojo in the US chances are very high it's a variant of Shotokan being taught there.
You wouldn't count American kickboxing as a style? There are people who haven't trained any other striking style, so what Style Familiarity do they have?

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Right. If in his adolescence he was thinking "I'ma gonna be a boxer" then just go with Boxing and then some Military H-to-H (which would represent the "generic" karate style he learned in his youth being molded more firmly by his military training. Maybe throw a few non-Fairbairn techniques in that he's remembered from his former life).
I think that him having considered becoming a boxer makes sense. Gibson wasn't ever going to be an Olympian or even a nationally ranked karateka and he wouldn't have been the most technically accomplished boxer, but he could take a punch. Pretty much his defining characteristics are those indicating that he just won't quit, such as Stubborness, Fearlessness 5, High Pain Threshold and DR 1 (Limited: Crushing; Tough Skin).

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
If however in his youth he knew pretty much he was destined for the military (maybe his Dad and Grandpa or uncles were ex-Navy) then he might have taken more chop-socky to be like Chuck (in which case give him one of the above 4 styles and then toss in teh following if not already covered in his style: Judo, Knife, Stealth, Choke Hold, Disarming (Judo), Neck Snap, and Targeted Attack (Knife Thrust/Neck) as "out of style" skills/techniques. Or just also give him Fairbairn Close Combat Training).
As far as I know, Fairbairn Close Combat Training is not representative of combatives training in any modern branch of the US military. What Gibson learned as a Navy SEAL would probably simply count as Style Familiarity (MMA) with a military lens. Since 2011, SEALs learn MMA, are supposed to attend MMA gyms and spar with mixed-martial artists.

And by now, MMA is pretty much a full-fledged style of its own, with the principal ancestors styles being BJJ and Muay Thai, with influences from Boxing, full-contact karate, Graeco-Roman wrestling, Judo and American kickboxing, as well as many other styles. A lot of people just study 'MMA', without ever learning any of the component styles.

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
In my experience people go into the Navy for 3 reasons:

1 - The lure of exotic ports.
2 - The lure of advanced technological training (the nuke program, advanced electronics, etc)
3 - They made a terrible, terrible error.

Since Gibson isn't likely to have made choice number 2, that leaves 1 and 3... which aren't incompatible choices.
Well, I'm sure exotic ports sounded good to Gibson. Hell, Afghanistan sounded good to Gibson.

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It's entirely possible he joined for the lure of exotic ports and then found a passion in the SEALs. I have a friend that went in for the lure of advanced radio comms and discovered he loved blowing stuff up and the grueling life of a SEAL.
Most SEALs who joined after 2006 enter through the Delayed Entry Program to go directly into training to attain the Special Warfore Operator rating. I just assumed that it applied to Gibson, i.e. that he'd joined the Navy with a guarantee that he'd be able to try out to become a SEAL.

And that he graduated dead last in the course, but still graduated. And during his first deployment to Afghanistan with a regular SEAL team, did something stupidly heroic which netted him the Purple Heart, Bronze Star with V device and the admiration of an officer. Two more Purple Hearts and another Bronze Star made it pretty hard to get rid of him, even though he was consistently below average in those parts of performance evaluations which had to do with independent thinking.

Gibson has wanted to join DEVGRU for years and finally succeeded. Black Squadron is larger than the rest of DEVGRU put together, so here is where he landed, even if he is hardly an ideal intelligence support operator. He does try very hard and by dint of superhuman effort, he manages the basic technical proficiency at everything he is asked to do, but he's the smallest operator in his platoon and the one with the lowest ASVAB score.

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Master Pui Chan who founded the American Wah Lum Temples was the sixth generation master of the Wah Lum Pai Tam Tui Northern Praying Mantis style.

So there you go, Mantis Style Kung Fu.

The Tai Chi they teach isn't meant as a combat form, but taken alongside the kung fu? It could easily be one.
I've got two choices that I'm pondering for her. Either make her martial art hobby entirely useless in combat, in which case it might be 8-10 points spent on Aikido, Judo, T'ai Chi, Tae Bo or some form of kung fu. Or make her a Wing Chun stylist who has spent 20-25 years as a fairly serious hobbyist, translating into 20+ points in it, which could turn out to be useful in her assignment.

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Wah Lum is a bit more traditional, even in the modern era, and so part of Wah Lum teaching is to learn and "embrace" Buddhism, at least enough to be a good student and not be a disruption in the temple.

Sifu Nancy also taught us Bushido, but didn't require it's practice. She was rather more thoroughly modern.
All of Wong's grandparents were born in the US (their ancestry being primarily Cantonese, with some Hakka, German, Hispanic and Native American blood). How likely is it that she'd be Buddhist and/or traditional?
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Old 03-29-2017, 08:50 AM   #48
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Default Re: Hobby Martial Art for Character Growing up in San Jose, CA (b. 1982)

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You wouldn't count American kickboxing as a style? There are people who haven't trained any other striking style, so what Style Familiarity do they have?
Sure. I was just looking at styles that were described in GURPS Martial Arts.

For "American" Kickboxing, I'd go with Shotokan and drop Exotic Hand Strike and Hammer Fist.

Quote:
As far as I know, Fairbairn Close Combat Training is not representative of combatives training in any modern branch of the US military. What Gibson learned as a Navy SEAL would probably simply count as Style Familiarity (MMA) with a military lens. Since 2011, SEALs learn MMA, are supposed to attend MMA gyms and spar with mixed-martial artists.
True, but as an operator I'd go ahead and give him Fairbairn and then a few other styles. He'd still be trained in Knife strikes and Stealth as a SEAL after all.


Quote:
All of Wong's grandparents were born in the US (their ancestry being primarily Cantonese, with some Hakka, German, Hispanic and Native American blood). How likely is it that she'd be Buddhist and/or traditional?
Unlikely, but you never know. While atheism is still on the rise 'feel good mysticism' is making a come back, and Buddhism is a pretty relaxed philosophy.
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Old 03-29-2017, 06:02 PM   #49
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Default Re: Hobby Martial Art for Character Growing up in San Jose, CA (b. 1982)

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Sure. I was just looking at styles that were described in GURPS Martial Arts.

For "American" Kickboxing, I'd go with Shotokan and drop Exotic Hand Strike and Hammer Fist.
Thanks. Add Karate Sport, of course.

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True, but as an operator I'd go ahead and give him Fairbairn and then a few other styles. He'd still be trained in Knife strikes and Stealth as a SEAL after all.
Sure, but that is not Fairbairn Close Combat Training. It's the addition of the military lens to the MMA style that SEALs learn.

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Unlikely, but you never know. While atheism is still on the rise 'feel good mysticism' is making a come back, and Buddhism is a pretty relaxed philosophy.
I think I imagine her as more likely to be into New Age mysticism and philosophy than any traditional religion. Or just agnostic/atheist.

A random roll determines that she is religious, of whatever faith that is most common among Americans of Chinese ethnic origin in California (4th-5th generation, depending which side we count). Any idea what faith that would be? Buddhism, some form of Christianity, Taoism?
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Old 03-29-2017, 10:12 PM   #50
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Default Re: Hobby Martial Art for Character Growing up in San Jose, CA (b. 1982)

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A random roll determines that she is religious, of whatever faith that is most common among Americans of Chinese ethnic origin in California (4th-5th generation, depending which side we count). Any idea what faith that would be? Buddhism, some form of Christianity, Taoism?
Unless she was raised in an ethnically chinese area, she's probably Christian.
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