07-12-2016, 06:56 AM | #71 | ||
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Vermont
|
Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)
Quote:
All of the HEMA texts that teach how to fight with a sword against armor focus on grappling and throws (which, like all grappling do favor the stronger fighter) and striking through the openings that armor provides (usually half-swording (what GURPS calls defensive grip) in order to maximize tip control. Strength probably does matter more when using a war-hammer or other weapon designed to actually harm your opponent directly through their armor. But swords aren't that. Quote:
If you're not wearing armor, I only need to be strong enough to push the point of my sword through your flesh and into your organs. If you are wearing armor, I need to be strong enough to push the point of my sword through the padded cloth covering your armpit, or perhaps only through your cornea (in both cases with a second hand on my sword). In either case, the average healthy adult is already strong enough to kill with good technique. I would be a better sword-fighter if I was stronger, but mostly because I experience muscular fatigue in a fight and because I'd like to be more dominant when the situation calls for grappling techniques.
__________________
My ongoing thread of GURPS versions of DC Comics characters. |
||
07-12-2016, 07:11 AM | #72 | |
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Vermont
|
Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)
Quote:
Let me be clear, I'm not arguing that ST "doesn't matter" in swordplay. I'm specifically saying the relative strength of two opponents matters much less in sword fighting than other martial arts. I'm also not alone in this assessment--the historical masters whose manuals I study have actually weighed in on this question. While noted sword-masters Liechtenauer, Meyer, Giganti, and Capo Ferro all say that skill is far more important than strength, bare-knuckle boxing champion Daniel Mendoza, despite being known for beating stronger opponents, writes that strength is more important than skill in a fist-fight. As for GURPS, I think it does actually reflect this pretty well. My only complaints are: A: There is no relationship between skill and damage with weapons, except with the cinematic trait weapons master (which comes with a slew of unrealistic benefits.) B: Swings are somehow better at hurting people through armor then thrusts when the opposite is the case IRL (mostly corrected by the Edge Protection rules in Low-Tech). C: It is too easy to keep fighting after being hit with a sword (especially thrusts to the torso--which should realistically mostly almost always hit an organ, even when the swordsman is on the weak side.)
__________________
My ongoing thread of GURPS versions of DC Comics characters. |
|
07-12-2016, 07:15 AM | #73 | ||
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Behind You
|
Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)
I'm of the opinion (And yes, this whole post is opinion) you can't really have DX without ST.
WHAAAAAT?! Yes, I think that's one of the most unrealistic parts of GURPS, that someone could have trained their body to be nimble and fast, without having gained ST during the whole thing. I could cite all kinds of Wikipedia Historian facts and Personal Examples, but in general, repeated motions, even without weight in the body, does build ST. And part of me wonders if there is actually a realistic reason to give people DX. It's a bit nebulous to me. Now I'm not saying people would have high levels of ST, but if you look at generally any skill from GURPS that uses DX and you were to apply yourself to that skill over and over again, I bet generally all of them would be building up strength. DX is cited as: Quote:
Quote:
Perhaps maybe Attributes play a little too strong a role in GURPS to make it realistic... maybe some attributes aren't really a thing... But I guess at the end of the day, even if I'm wrong, right or just an opinionated internet goer, it's certainly more enjoyable to have DX than not. And part of the importance of GURPS isn't how well it emulates reality, but how much fun people have doing it.
__________________
RPG Jutsu.com - Ninjas Play GURPS |
||
07-12-2016, 07:37 AM | #74 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
|
Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)
Quote:
That said one ST10 chap with a broadsword stabbing another ST/HP10 chap in the torso will be doing on average* 7 imp injury. That's a major wound, and drops the target to half dodge/Mv etc, etc That realistically is the end of most fights even if the stabbed chap is still moving about a bit. *strictly speaking average is 50% a 6 point injury and 50% a 8 point injury Last edited by Tomsdad; 07-13-2016 at 02:44 AM. |
|
07-12-2016, 07:48 AM | #75 |
Join Date: Feb 2009
|
Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)
High ST does give some pretty serious advantages, but of course it should given its high cost (ST 9 vs ST 15 is 60pts)
ST is not as important for killing squishy unarmored humans with a sword It is very useful for killing armored humans, dragons, ogres, stone golems and so forth ST is also one of the vital ingredients to transforming from a squishy unarmored human to a less squishy armored one One of the biggest problems I've found with 'weak plus skilled' is that they often lack the basic lift to back up their parry, burly foes can Slam or swing hefty weapons that they can't parry |
07-12-2016, 07:57 AM | #76 | |
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France
|
Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)
Quote:
If you parry your foe's attack when his muscles are contracted, it is too late. Now, if the foe contracts his muscles during all the attack, his attack will be slow; it will be very easy to dodge it. A very good strike is a strike where muscles are contracted only at the end. It gives a very quick and very strong attack. But it also allows the defender to parry it quite easily ... if he does it with the good timing! |
|
07-12-2016, 08:07 AM | #77 |
Join Date: Feb 2009
|
Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)
In GURPS you can't parry things outweighing your basic lift
With ST 9 your basic lift is 16.2 Slams by something of ST 17 or above, or some of the heftier SM +1 weapons or most SM +2 for instance |
07-12-2016, 08:11 AM | #78 |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
|
Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)
Beats are another good way to leverage ST against speed/skill, especially for those fantasy builds where high ST is more common.
|
07-12-2016, 08:13 AM | #79 | |
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France
|
Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)
Quote:
But, fortunately, there is still a difference between a slam attack made by someone with ST 17 and his sword swing attack ... A very skilled averagely strong man can parry the second, even if he cannot parry the first. Even a ST 17 warrior (which is quite cinematic) won't wield 17 lbs swords. Minimum ST for the shortsword (2 lbs) is 8. For the broadsword (3 lbs), it is 10. For the greatsword (7 lbs), it is 12. I don't know what it could be for a 17 lbs weapon, but surely much more than 17. Last edited by Gollum; 07-12-2016 at 08:23 AM. |
|
07-12-2016, 08:18 AM | #80 | |
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Vermont
|
Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)
Quote:
Sword masters referred to the area near the point of a sword as "the weak" and the area near the hilt as "the strong." If you place the strong of your sword on your opponent's weak, simple principles of leverage will allow you to easily move your opponent's sword no matter how much they resist. Seriously, try this at home. Try it against someone stronger than you. Makes no difference. Similarly, you can parry any blow if you catch it on the strong of your blade or on the cross. Especially if you parry with the "true edge"* (the edge that lines up with your knuckles and faces away from you) as this enforces good body mechanics. *HEMA practitioners who argue that you should only parry with the flat of the blade do so against the advice of the renaissance rapier masters and 19th century saber and broadsword manuals.
__________________
My ongoing thread of GURPS versions of DC Comics characters. Last edited by aesir23; 07-12-2016 at 08:26 AM. |
|
Tags |
combat, hema |
|
|