[DF, Magic] Make all VH spells H?

[Kalzazz]

I am wondering if it breaks to much to just get rid of VH spells in DF and make them H?

In particular the Cleric spell lists don't mark which spells are which, so it becomes much annoying to have to go look them up

Then I started to wonder, what happens if just go all H?

I don't see any big problems myself

[finn]

In the days of 3e, the distinction between Mental/Hard Skills and Mental/Very Hard spells where important. Hard spells could be raised at 2 points/level, so could be easily raised to 21 or 25. Very Hard spells cost 4 points/level, and much harder to raise to high levels.

Since that distinction is gone, and there is only a difference of 1 level (or 4 points at most), making all spells Hard will not break anything.

It will make spell casters slightly stronger, and you would lose some coloring to distinguish spells that are suppose to be extra hard. That's about it.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by finn

Since that distinction is gone, and there is only a difference of 1 level (or 4 points at most), making all spells Hard will not break anything.

Most people usually aim for the breakpoints with spell casters, so IQ+Magery-2=15 or =20 (depending on point level) so that they can get all spells at 15 or 20 for 1 point and get all the benefits of reduced casting time and energy cost. I believe the rulebook even mentions doing this, reinforcing this minor "munchkinism." This means that in most situations the difference in 1 level for spells is only 1 point to make the VH spell reach the breakpoint.

So, as a minor simplification of spellcasting I don't think it really breaks anything.

[sir_pudding]

If you have some people using GCA or GCS or whatever you have just made it more complicated for them, so it is a double-edged simplification.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

If you have some people using GCA or GCS or whatever you have just made it more complicated for them, so it is a double-edged simplification.

For GCA the changeover datafile would be pretty easy to bang out. If he needs it I'll whip it up in a couple minutes for him. I might do it anyways to add to the Variant datafiles, as it's an interesting and simple idea.

[dripton]

It would also be easy in GCS. Pretty much just a search and replace.

[hal]

What are spells as far as the GURPS system go?

Are they skills? If so, why aren't they such that some spells are easy to master? Are they all 1 point advantages? Why are some spells so difficult, that they equate to real world skills that are hard to master such as physics etc?

Does it beak the system to have easy and average spells? If spells are essentially the same as skills, they should be treated like skills right down to whether they are easy to master, of average difficulty to master or harder yet.

Maybe if that kind of treatment is given to GURPS MAGIC - mages might not spend all of their points on spells alone.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by hal

Maybe if that kind of treatment is given to GURPS MAGIC - mages might not spend all of their points on spells alone.

Might be interesting, but unless you're using a computer program to make characters it would be utterly maddening to keep track of.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by hal

Maybe if that kind of treatment is given to GURPS MAGIC - mages might not spend all of their points on spells alone.

They already don't.

Most Mages (if allowed) spend an almost equal amount on IQ and Magery.

[hal]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

Might be interesting, but unless you're using a computer program to make characters it would be utterly maddening to keep track of.

As you pointed out so much earlier upthread...

Anyone who can diddle with the data files, can change the difficulty of the spell in the file, rename it to GURPMAGICREVISED or some such file name, and use that in lieu of building the character with GCA. Ditto with revising "costs" of equipment or what have you. Customized data files can be done. If you want - why not create a web page that shows HOW it can be done in a step by step manner so that even those people who don't know how to do it and think it is too hard, can attempt it. Of course, number one rule when making modifications to files is to create COPIES of the original file and only work on the copy. ;)

But it can be done.

At one point in time, I considered creating a change to the spell SEEK EARTH. I wanted to make it such that you had to specialize in one particular type of earth metal you wanted to find, and all "earth types" suffered a -2 to -4 penalty to cast the spell. It was in the same vein as saying that you could learn to cast shapeshift for one specific type of change, but all other non-specialized versions suffered a default penalty. Why do Shapeshift Hawk spells have to be learned independently of Shapeshift mouse? If a spell like SHAPESHIFT were to be treated as a SKILL, then each "type" of animal or such, could be treated as a technique. Buying a fair number of techniques to offset penalties for unfamiliarity would work, or, if buying too many techniques weren't cost effective, then simply up the original spell skill to show that the mastery of the spell itself, makes it easier to branch out to different shapes. A shapeshifting spell caster under the old rules would have to pay 100 character points to know how to shapeshift into 100 different animals. That doesn't seem right to my way of thinking.

Does GURPS MAGIC show its age? Yup. Can it do with a better streamlining of its spells, a more comprehensive approach to spell duration type, etc? Of Course. But it could also do with an upgrade to its approach. Are spells SKILLS or are they ADVANTAGES? I've heard Kromm say they're both on different occasions. Why not finally go with "They're skills" and realize that some skills are easier to master than others.

If that weren't enough? What if the EASY version of Fire spells meant that the critical failure rolls were worse off than critical failures for the Mental Average version of Fire Spells? What if the HARD to master spells for the Fire College meant that all critical failure rolls were rolled on TWO dice instead of three, or perhaps offered a 2d6-3 roll on Crit Failure tables. Sometimes, even a crit failure might not affect anything at all?

This tinkering with the mental learning category of spells might invite further tinkering such that the GURPS MAGIC system can finally become more "Generic".

When GURPS MAGIC for 4e came out and the spell duration types were codified in that fashion, I wondered...

Can you have what is essentially one spell - but with four different duration types? So, the original poster's thread on how to make a minor change to the magic system, could include other possibilities for customizing the spell system for his campaign world beyond just that of "Mental difficulty" type. :)