The Guildless (explaining what PCs are)

[Michael Thayne]

There's a concept I've seen kicked around on the GURPS forums called Doomed Slayers that attempts to justify traditional tropes of Dungeons and Dragons-style fantasy. It relies on somewhat weird cultural concepts that may not be everyone's cup of tea. I have an alternative suggestion that seems implicit in some of the rules in the DFRPG and some of the setting information for Caverntown, but seems worth making explicit. The idea is just this: the PCs are part of a social group known as the guildless, meaning it is very nearly illegal for them to take any kind of steady work. The law doesn't say this in so many words, it's just that once you eliminate all the trades that are the exclusive monopoly of a particular guild, temple, academy, or similar, there's almost nothing left.

Note that while almost all player character types are guildless, only a small minority of guildless resemble 250-point player characters. Instead, guildless are a diverse group of beggars, bounty-hunters, counterfeiters, cutpurses, disinherited nobles, itinerant preachers, professional dominoes players, unemployed veterans, and wandering minstrels, plus the occasional wizard who advertises the service of “get rid of the Thing in your basement” because, for whatever reason, he or she can’t get safer work from the Wizards’ Guild. The huge number of guildless drives down pay for what few jobs are available to them, which tend to be dangerous and irregular in addition to not paying much. The closest thing to steady work most guildless can expect is "room and board to face minor dangers once a week". Also popular is "I'll give you a real gold coin to do this one little thing...", which often isn't so little.

I think the above is in some ways more or less implicit in the Dungeon Fantasy series (Kromm can correct me if I'm wrong), but it seems worth making explicit.

[Refplace]

Sounds interesting.
In my current fantasy setting I have few dungeons and adventurers have to go for other options for most activity.

• Rival kingdoms as privateers or raiders.
• Wandering explorers, entertainers, or scholars
• Merchant escorts
• Wandering monster patrols

[evileeyore]

Sounds like a winning concept to me. Even if they have skills, they've clearly been barred from entry into a Guild, or kicked out for whatever reason.

[Black Leviathan]

There's only two potential issues I see with that seeing that would need ironing.

Priests and Holy Warriors are orthodoxy and establishment. They wouldn't fall outside of that Guildworld structure unless something specifically made religion counter-culture.

In that kind of rigid economic system there would be guards/constables as part of the prosperous guilds and the Guard Guild would crap their pants over any 250pt adventurer that wants to work for them, even Bards.

I'd say if you want a world setting that asks why adventurer's adventure and you want the answer to be a society that doesn't value or reward them, have them be outcasts, kicked out of guilds and ineligible to return.

[martinl]

There is danger in pitting society against the PCs - PCs are prone to fighting back.

So if you are ok with the game swapping around to PCs vs Town, or very confident in your players following the script, go for it. Pitting the protagonists against society is a popular conflict.

However, it is deraily as heck if your actual goal is sending them down to the sewers to fight rat-creatures. Sure you can smack them down with awesome GM powers, but is that what you WANT to be doing with your awesome DM powers?

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Black Leviathan

Priests and Holy Warriors are orthodoxy and establishment.

Are they establishment? I see nothing in the rules that requires this. They can be establishment, or they can be outside the establishment. Imagine a religious society that trains priests and ordained in their duties, but provides no support (political or economic) outside what the laity and followers themselves wish to support. Locals temples and shrines may very well lend what aid they can (1/2 off on Holy Water), but that isn't a place to sleep or food to eat.

And the temples/shrine's priests and laity might not want to share what meager amounts they have if their followers are not particularly generous.

[Anthony]

Hm. My cheap version for what PCs are (actually from a different game system, but works pretty much the same in DF)

PCs are the chosen hosts of 'heroic spirits'. Heroic spirits are limited in number (but not actually mortal; hence when a PC dies, another new hero tends to pop up) and draw their strength from "blood and glory" -- i.e. they gain energy from killing things (though they have a restricted diet), and they also gain strength from people knowing about their deeds (they are not directly motivated by loot, except to the extent it can buy glory, but the chance for wealth often motivates people to become hosts). Heroic spirits can be affiliated with gods but do not have to be; mostly what they do is make their hosts better at what they would already do.

Heroic spirits are involved in a forever war with evil spirits. Evil spirits are similar to heroic spirits, but lack restrictions on what they can kill and want terror, not glory, and are prone to triggering physical changes to their hosts. Also like heroic spirits, they are not directly motivated by wealth, but use it as bait to acquire new hosts.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Black Leviathan

There's only two potential issues I see with that seeing that would need ironing.

Priests and Holy Warriors are orthodoxy and establishment. They wouldn't fall outside of that Guildworld structure unless something specifically made religion counter-culture.

Fair point. With clerics, you can imagine a situation where there are more clerics than postings to temples where they can get room and board for hanging out and casting healing spells or whatever. Holy warriors are trickier because they have fairly blatant abilities that will tend to make them stand out as exceptional. But there's still always the possibility that, if there's no war going on and the local demons and undead seem to be under control, the Lord who a holy warrior answers to will decide he's tired of paying for the upkeep of such a large order and tell them to go away and find some wrongs to right.

Originally Posted by martinl

There is danger in pitting society against the PCs - PCs are prone to fighting back.

So if you are ok with the game swapping around to PCs vs Town, or very confident in your players following the script, go for it. Pitting the protagonists against society is a popular conflict.

However, it is deraily as heck if your actual goal is sending them down to the sewers to fight rat-creatures. Sure you can smack them down with awesome GM powers, but is that what you WANT to be doing with your awesome DM powers?

I wouldn't call it a matter of setting society against the PCs, so much as giving the GM a stick to poke the PCs with if they don't think his planned quest pays enough up front, or the wizard tries to make a living doing nonhazardous jobs, or something.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

I wouldn't call it a matter of setting society against the PCs...

/rewind sound/

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

...the PCs are part of a social group known as the guildless, meaning it is very nearly illegal for them to take any kind of steady work.

This come up a lot in my experience. GMs think the best way to steer the players is some sort of stick. But ALSO in my experience a lot of players are there for a no consequences power fantasy, and knuckling under is contra-indicated. In fact being able to stick up for yourself against jerks who want to force you to risk your life for pennies by denying you a fair chance is often central to that.

[Michael Thayne]

For an example of how to do the sort of thing I'm describing without necessarily causing the PCs to try to incite a rebellion, look at GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Setting: Caverntown. PCs are valued in Caverntown—but they're valued as people who can be sent on quests, not people to hire for any sort of steady job. According to the sourcebook, PCs who try to sell things they craft or brew are violating guild privilege (p. 41), as are those who try to provide magical services, including spellcasting (p. 43). Furthermore, in the context of describing tensions between two guilds, it's mentioned that the Chamber of Commerce "asserts that buying, selling, importing, and exporting weapons and armor is its prerogative" (p. 19), and there's no reason to think this doesn't apply to other goods one might attempt to buy low and sell high. That pretty much rules out most steady careers one could possibly pursue in a town. The closest thing to an exception is serving on the Town Watch, which only provides room and board but no pay, and requires weekly roles for random events, which are pretty much always a crime or monster attack (though they vary in severity). None of this means the PCs won't be able to score big on a dungeon crawl, but it does somewhat limit their bargaining power when offered a quest.