Modern Heros

[KevinJ]

Originally Posted by JLV

I'm actually thinking more in terms of how to play it in TFT, as opposed to reality. If I really want that much detail, I'd go to GURPS and not need to worry about this very much. In TFT, I think you need a simpler, more all-encompassing set of rules and talents that can be posted in a page or two, not the level of detail you seem to be indicating. But hey, YMMV and all that! ;-)

This is not a rules application, but just talking about rules as relates to gaming. We used to do this all the time when I was in the Army.

This just came to me. Sword includes Knife. If you take kn ife then you can later take Sword for 1pt less.

How about an introductory 'single rifle' for 1pt that can become 'Shoulder Arms' for 1pt less. Now you have to consider that single rifle is not just that one very specifiy model of rifle from this specific manuefacturer, but the entire M-16 family of rifles would be considered a 'single rifle'.

In addition. What if modern soldiers don't learn the Shoulder Arms talent, but learn a level of Marksmanship (+1 with modern firearms) akin to Missile Weapons for bows, crossbows, and Guns used in Fantasy.

[JLV]

Originally Posted by KevinJ

This is not a rules application, but just talking about rules as relates to gaming. We used to do this all the time when I was in the Army.

This just came to me. Sword includes Knife. If you take kn ife then you can later take Sword for 1pt less.

How about an introductory 'single rifle' for 1pt that can become 'Shoulder Arms' for 1pt less. Now you have to consider that single rifle is not just that one very specifiy model of rifle from this specific manuefacturer, but the entire M-16 family of rifles would be considered a 'single rifle'.

In addition. What if modern soldiers don't learn the Shoulder Arms talent, but learn a level of Marksmanship (+1 with modern firearms) akin to Missile Weapons for bows, crossbows, and Guns used in Fantasy.

Well, this all goes back to my comment on being too fiddly for the game. I think I want something a bit more general for TFT than this is -- you're still defining each weapon (or now, class of weapon; "M-16 family") as a separate talent, and I just don't think it's truly necessary.

What you REALLY seem to be addressing is the larger aspects of the weaponry, not the actual shooting of it (anybody can put a rifle to their shoulder and shoot it -- and can be taught the basics of doing so in about an hour -- regardless if it's a Winchester, a Springfield '03, a Garand, an M-14, an M-16, or a Laser Blast Rifle. Cleaning it, maintaining it, and working on it is a completely separate level of skill).

Finally, what it seems you're might be edging toward is a weapon class mastery for automatic; versus automatic, crew served; versus semi-automatic; versus bolt-action; versus muzzle-loading; versus flintlock; etc., kind of system. And that might work just fine if we kept it that generic for TFT.

[KevinJ]

Originally Posted by JLV

Well, this all goes back to my comment on being too fiddly for the game. I think I want something a bit more general for TFT than this is -- you're still defining each weapon (or now, class of weapon; "M-16 family") as a separate talent, and I just don't think it's truly necessary.

What you REALLY seem to be addressing is the larger aspects of the weaponry, not the actual shooting of it (anybody can put a rifle to their shoulder and shoot it -- and can be taught the basics of doing so in about an hour -- regardless if it's a Winchester, a Springfield '03, a Garand, an M-14, an M-16, or a Laser Blast Rifle. Cleaning it, maintaining it, and working on it is a completely separate level of skill).

Finally, what it seems you're might be edging toward is a weapon class mastery for automatic; versus automatic, crew served; versus semi-automatic; versus bolt-action; versus muzzle-loading; versus flintlock; etc., kind of system. And that might work just fine if we kept it that generic for TFT.

Exactly. If you want to work out 'modern' of 'Sci-fi' talents then you have to find the balance between complexity and simplicity. If you have a limited weapon choice in your modern world then having a single 'shoulder arms' Talent would work for any weapon fired 'from the shoulder.' And a single pistol talent for anything fired from one or two hands, but not supported by a shoulder shock. The current Guns Talent is for muzzle loading matchlock weapons and in a strickly fantasy setting would be fine for the rare M-16 or AKM 'artifact' players might find.

Using Mastery for each action/feed type might be just the ticket, since real mastery of firearms goes well past knowing how to pull a trigger to make it go bang.

[JLV]

Originally Posted by KevinJ

Exactly. If you want to work out 'modern' of 'Sci-fi' talents then you have to find the balance between complexity and simplicity. If you have a limited weapon choice in your modern world then having a single 'shoulder arms' Talent would work for any weapon fired 'from the shoulder.' And a single pistol talent for anything fired from one or two hands, but not supported by a shoulder shock. The current Guns Talent is for muzzle loading matchlock weapons and in a strickly fantasy setting would be fine for the rare M-16 or AKM 'artifact' players might find.

Using Mastery for each action/feed type might be just the ticket, since real mastery of firearms goes well past knowing how to pull a trigger to make it go bang.

Well then, maybe what we need here is a proposal for those categories of weapon mastery including specifics (I'd say IQ levels should probably increase simply because the weapons become increasingly complex to build and maintain over time -- but on the other hand, I think maintaining a flintlock might be a hell of a lot harder/more complex than field-stripping an M-16, even though actually making parts for it might be easier, so I don't know), as well as some kind of TL range such things would fall in.

Which takes us back to the GURPS TLs again! ;-)

[KevinJ]

Originally Posted by JLV

Well then, maybe what we need here is a proposal for those categories of weapon mastery including specifics (I'd say IQ levels should probably increase simply because the weapons become increasingly complex to build and maintain over time -- but on the other hand, I think maintaining a flintlock might be a hell of a lot harder/more complex than field-stripping an M-16, even though actually making parts for it might be easier, so I don't know), as well as some kind of TL range such things would fall in.

Which takes us back to the GURPS TLs again! ;-)

So what happens when you hand the TL6 soldier the unloaded TL3 matchlock with detached and unlit fuse? I expect that a large percentage of today's military (especially Air Force) wouldn't have a clue what to do. So imagine a place where they have no information on the weapon you are giving them. Basic Marksmanship would still apply, if their zap guns even required basic marksmanship to hit the enemy.

Fortunately for me I watch Gun Jesus on Forgotten Weapons and Gun Moses on C&Rsenal.

[JLV]

Originally Posted by KevinJ

So what happens when you hand the TL6 soldier the unloaded TL3 matchlock with detached and unlit fuse? I expect that a large percentage of today's military (especially Air Force) wouldn't have a clue what to do. So imagine a place where they have no information on the weapon you are giving them. Basic Marksmanship would still apply, if their zap guns even required basic marksmanship to hit the enemy.

Fortunately for me I watch Gun Jesus on Forgotten Weapons and Gun Moses on C&Rsenal.

Speaking as both a former USAF and USA person (11B), I can say that none of the soldiers would have either; so take off with the negativity about the USAF there, buddy. ;-)

Also, I fail to see why that's a problem at all. Does the character have the TL3 version of weapon mastery for gunpowder weapons ("Matchlock Mastery")? If not, then duh. If so, then of course.

[warhorse11h]

How about this as an alternative, working within the framework of the game as it is.

Already in the rules you have the following
Guns IQ 8
Armourer, Engineer IQ 10
Mechanician IQ 11
Master Armourer IQ 12
Master Mechanician IQ 13

Add 3 talents Firearms I IQ 11, Firearms II IQ 13 and Firearms III IQ 14.

Firearms I Prerequisites, Guns, Mechanician. Ability to use hand held and shoulder fired weapons. Perhaps not well, but at least well enough to not shoot himself or friends.
Firearms II Prerequisites, Firearms I, Armourer, Engineer. Crew served weapons with proficiency as above.
Firearms III Prerequisites Firearms II, Master Armourer, Master Mechanician. Indirect fire and heavy weapons with proficiency as above.

Outsiders, who drift into Cidri from outside may very well have knowledge of some or all of these skills, that while they wouldn't qualify as experts here, would be very knowledgeable in Cidri.

“We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.” Konstantin Jireček

[Skarg]

How many soldiers don't have IQ 11 though, and what do they study?

[warhorse11h]

Originally Posted by Skarg

How many soldiers don't have IQ 11 though, and what do they study?

Well, as one who served with and among them as well as led them in a variety of unusual and challenging circumstances, I would say the overwhelming majority have the IQ 11, considering what ITL says regarding intelligence and what those numbers equate to in a general sort of way.

Of course, if you took them out of this modern world and dropped them into a medieval or renaissance society, they would be rank amateurs in some ways and genius level in others.

[Skarg]

Would you say they enter the army with IQ 11+, or that the army training gives them IQ 11+ by the time they need to be able to use the IQ 11 guns talent?