06-22-2018, 03:28 PM | #31 | |
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: New England
|
Re: Unskilled rolls
Quote:
Unless the talent has a specific penalty for trying to use it unskilled, I would tell players to find some one to help them. That said, if the GM wants to let a player try, CJM's idea to add 1d6 per talent cost, above, is pretty cool! - Jack |
|
06-22-2018, 03:46 PM | #32 |
President and EIC
Join Date: Jul 2004
|
Re: Unskilled rolls
Here is a draft of a *simple* approach, which does leave some things to our GM:
Unskilled Rolls Some talent (e.g., Climbing) specify what may be attempted by a person who does not have the talent. For other talents, the GM may, at their sole discretion, allow attempts at a penalty of one or two dice. For instance, suppose a situation specifically requires an Thief roll to open a lot. But it’s an easy lock, big and old. The GM could say “I’ll let you try it without Thief skill, but at a penalty of 2 dice.” Thus, the non-Thief players would have to roll 5 dice to tickle that lock into opening. The commonest example of this is with regular weaponry. Most weapons are fairly easy to use, so if you pick up a weapon without training, you can still hit with it, at a penalty of 1 die. So you roll 4 dice every time you attack with that weapon. But the GM should ruthlessly prohibit unreasonable uses of this rule. No matter how high your basic stat might be, some things are just not possible without training. There is no “unskilled” ability to fire multiple arrows in a turn, or to be a Priest or Physicker or Vet. Likewise, skills like Throwing, Veteran, and Warrior, whose whole effect is a numerical bonus, cannot be invoked in an unskilled mode. |
06-22-2018, 04:03 PM | #33 |
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Arizona
|
Re: Unskilled rolls
I like it, but I still am willing to bet you'll get a lot of questions about it from people that are having a problem extrapolating from the basic rule as written... ;-)
|
06-22-2018, 04:20 PM | #34 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2018
|
Re: Unskilled rolls
With that said, does that then leave us at the stage of determining which specific talents fall default into the *unskilled mode* categories of:
Or, are you considering the "add dice" method as the exclusive revised method, and eliminating the "fixed DX penalty" method in the case of attempting a thing without the talent altogether? JK |
06-22-2018, 04:46 PM | #35 |
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
|
Default Talents - Options...
My opinion:
Before proposing a default talent use rule, we should probably consider what kind of success rate we want default talents to have. Consider these attribute levels, and the -4 modifier:
So...do you want default talents to allow average or near average folks to succeed some (but not most) of the time? Or do you want average folks to succeed almost never, but high attribute folks to succeed far more often? Etc. And as this chart shows, the concern about high attribute levels being way too capable with default talents is well-founded. Default Talents I think that figures should be able to perform the following talents at some default level:
No-Default Talents I don't think that these kinds of talents should be allowed to be used at a default:
Comments
I can think of several ways to address the issue with high attributes, but and all represent different approaches than the standard TFT mechanics:
Note- I played around with this system long ago, after designing A Fistful of TOWs 2. The idea was to have no negative modifiers for harder than average tasks. In addition to the 3d roll, you'd roll a different colored "difficulty die". To succeed, the 3d6 roll had to be a success AND the difficulty die would have to be equal to or more than the difficulty level of the task. Normal tasks were level 1, so a difficulty die wasn't required for them. I calibrated the system by assuming a typical attribute rating of 12.
I abandoned it, because, while I liked the statistical properties, it really didn't solve any major problems I had (I did not generally allow default talents). That said, a difficulty level of 2 corresponds roughly to a -1 modifier (again, calibrated on a 12 attribute rating). A difficulty level of 3 corresponds roughly to a -2 modifier. So it could replace the modifier AND extra dice systems completely, with a minor loss of resolution. Last edited by tbeard1999; 06-22-2018 at 06:02 PM. |
06-22-2018, 05:25 PM | #36 | |||
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
|
Re: Unskilled rolls
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It might be more helpful to provide a simple notation for talents that can be used by figures without the talent. Last edited by tbeard1999; 06-22-2018 at 05:48 PM. |
|||
06-22-2018, 07:28 PM | #37 | |
Join Date: Jun 2006
|
Re: Unskilled rolls
Quote:
It applies by *task* not by *talent*. It may need a more explicit statement of that, perhaps as an extension of that lock example that a little harder lock, or some more complicated task covered by Thief Talent could not be attempted at all. And perhaps the weapon use needs to be phrased as "most weapons are relatively easy to hurt someone with, even if you are not using them quite properly" or something to make it clear the intent even there isn't necessarily you can do anything you could with the actual Talent, just the admittedly most important part of hurting your enemies with it.
__________________
-- MA Lloyd |
|
06-22-2018, 08:56 PM | #38 | |
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Geelong, Australia
|
Re: Default Talents - Options...
Quote:
I think that there should be a rule in here to prevent this, similar to the GURPS rule of 14 (Page 360 Campaigns). Now, we might not choose 13 like GURPS does; 14, 15, or 16 might be more reasonable. Maximum Attribute Level If your attribute exceeds a base of 10 plus the number of dice of the check, reduce it to that value for the purpose of a difficulty check. Example You have IQ 19 and attempt to use a skill you have no talent for. The GM determines that it will be a 5 dice difficulty check. Your IQ is considered to be 10+5 = 15 for the purpose of this roll. Following are some examples with percentage chance of success, all rounded down.: Max chance of success on a 4d roll with base of X, compared to an attribute of 19. 9+4 = 13 44% 10+4 = 14 55% 11+4 = 15 66% 12+4 = 16 76% vs attribute of 19: 94% (auto failure at 20 in any case) 5d roll 9+5 = 14 22% 10+5 = 15 30% 11+5 = 16 39% 12+5 = 17 50% vs attribute of 19: 69% (auto failure at 20 in any case) I know that looks scary with all the percentages but it's not too bad in play as the papers won't see that. Thoughts? |
|
06-22-2018, 09:06 PM | #39 | |
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
|
Re: Default Talents - Options...
Quote:
Your rule seems a bit fiddly (though no more fiddly than some of my proposals). Or maybe I'm just tired. I think that the fastest approach is to use my "default die" idea or simply state that a default talent fails on a roll of (say) 12+. The first takes a little getting used to and the second requires you to remember something. |
|
06-22-2018, 10:31 PM | #40 | |
Join Date: May 2015
|
Re: Default Talents - Options...
Quote:
|
|
|
|