Missile Spells

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

That would depend on what we are relating it's relative strength to.

If only looking at it's use against typical fighters, yes, all the missile spells can be abused to turn a wizard into a cannon - and some folks like that sort of game - however, when facing say some gargantuan beastie, an 8+8 w.w. spell may be the only hope the adventure party has to save themselves, and, the world-at-large.

Frankly, I am of the personal opinion that the missile spells are fine the way they are; and, it is up to the creativity and ingenuity of a GM to create scenarios which ultimately punishes players who meet each combat encounter by calling out: "Bring forth the Spell Canon!!!"; and thereby make players think twice about the consequences of such wholesale problem-solving tactics.

So, to reiterate one of my less-popular mantras: "Rather than tweak the performance of the rules to limit player-agency, perhaps we should focus more on how to tweak the performance of the average GM; if desired."

After all, unbridled actions, free of consequence, rewards and encourages further unbridled actions; and if that is game some folks want, so be it; but the option to run a disciplined game of consequence of actions, or, to run amok with mayhem, should be left up to each group to decide for themselves - rather than being dictated by creating artificial governors within the rules.

JK

I have to quote Jim here because I agree. The various missile spells, and their progression according to IQ, really seem to work well, including the ever sought after Wizard's Wrath!

I've never seen abuse but rather desperate moves by wizards using this spell. Often it is the last thing a wizard attempts before the entire party is sunk and he is killed.

Upping the damage with each successive spell by IQ as is currently done works very well, rewarding higher IQ, and magic fist, as well as the others, can "fail" to "save" the Party by rolling low damage at a critical time, or out and out *missing*, especially if the GM allows characters to change to dodge at the second the spell is cast!

As I mentioned before, a good wizard normally only resorts to a one-time "big stick" when more clever use of spells has failed or is no longer possible.

Almost no one I know wants to take two-thirds of their ST for a risky shot at something unless there really is no better, and subtle, action for less risk and strength requirement.

Capping missile weapons' damage beyond the wiz's ability, or the ST put into it, really changes what role missile weapons spell has in TFT, and I highly recommend against it. I know my group would be quite disappointed at any substantial rule change, and might push us into the camp of playing TFT TOS and avoiding using/purchasing any new rules material completely.

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

... Here are my notes now:

Missile spells – cap at 3 ST input, but increase each spell by 1 hit, so Magic Fist becomes 1d-1, Fireball 1, Lightning 1d+1. MF does a minimum damage equal to ST put into it; it never fails completely.

A concern here might be that with missile spells boosted and staves available, a wizard might be tempted to turn into plain old artillery. OTOH, if that is how somebody wants to play, more power to them. I would usually keep Trip in my own repertoire, for instance. ...

Hi Steve, everyone.
In old TFT, I felt that Missile Spells and Creation Spells were over powered. Wizards ALWAYS took a missile spell. Always. It was a no brainer. I suspect that you agreed, in GURPS, missile spells were MUCH weaker and summoned creatures were rare compared to TFT.

I wouldn't mind if the Missile spells were toned down a bit from old TFT.

The thing that irked me most about Magic Fist and Fireball, was doing less damage than the fatigue ST (fST) I put into them. I like the rule that Magic Fist does a minimum 1 point of damage for each fST spent. Likewise Fireball should do a minimum of 1 damage / fST. Word the spells so that each DIE ROLLED, does at least one point of damage.

I do not think that the damage of the spells should be increased more than this, and I like Wizard's Wrath. It will be VERY hard to get an IQ 18 in new TFT, and people need great rewards for doing so.

***

In my campaign, people try pretty hard to get at least 4 points of armor. So let's think about missile spells vs. a bandit with 4 armor.

-- Magic Fist. Each die does (4+3+2+1+1+1)/6 damage = 2 hits on average. A 3 point Magic Fist will do about 6 points, so 2 will get thru the bandit's armor. Pretty marginal, but against monsters or people with less armor, it starts to look at lot better. This is an IQ 8 spell. I don't think we WANT it to be much better. 4 points of armor SHOULD be effective vs. IQ 8 spells.

-- Fire Ball. Each die does (5+4+3+2+1+1)/6 = 2.667 damage on average. Against the bandit a 3 die Fireball does 8 points so 4 get thru. This is decent for a ranged spell. Of course lighter armoured foes such as bears / wolves / etc. are better targets.

-- Lightning. Each die does 3.5 damage on average, so a 3 die Lightning does 6.5 damage vs my bandit. A bit above average roll knocks him off his feet despite armor. Good.

-- Wizard's Wrath. Easily doing 9 damage on typical rolls after armor. Wizard Wrath is FUN.

***

Note that being able to do damage at range is powerful. Spells where the wizard has to get close to do damage (like Hammer Touch), could use a boost more than missile spells, I think. I have spells that the wizard has to touch their target (Finger of Death, Palm of Death, Fist of Death), which do damage that by-passes armor, and hurts insubstantial beings. But the fact that the wizard has to get up close is a self limiting. Spells where the wizard gets to stay back, and lob damage a long way do not need major buffs, in my humble opinion.

Warm regards, Rick.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Kirk

Upping the damage with each successive spell by IQ as is currently done works very well, rewarding higher IQ, and magic fist, as well as the others, can "fail" to "save" the Party by rolling low damage at a critical time, or out and out *missing*, especially if the GM allows characters to change to dodge at the second the spell is cast!

Yes, I think the minuses to the damage roll help, because the chance of a weak hit somewhat reduces the certainty of the spells.

And the ability to dodge as Changing Options in response to an incoming fireball etc tends to add uncertainty as well.

Originally Posted by Kirk

As I mentioned before, a good wizard normally only resorts to a one-time "big stick" when more clever use of spells has failed or is no longer possible.

Yes.

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by Skarg

If Magic Fist took 2 fatigue to cast, it would average less damage than fatigue used to cast it, even when it hit.

Hi Skarg,
Yes, but do not forget the staff (as part of my whole suggestion) more than doubles the available ST. Just not immediately available. This is the whole point, this change makes missile spells a little less usable, but it also makes all others a lot cheaper.
-respectfully
-Alan

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by Skarg

The new staff ST idea SJ introduced does add a new element to thinking about wizard power.

Hi,
Where can I find SJ's new staff idea?

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

Where can I find SJ's new staff idea?

It's here on (page 14 for me) of the Experience Points thread.

[Steve Jackson]

Keep in mind that unless the GM just hands out staves like candy, a fully buffed staff will take a long time to get and the wizard will be foregoing other improvements.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

Keep in mind that unless the GM just hands out staves like candy, a fully buffed staff will take a long time to get and the wizard will be foregoing other improvements.

That's true. Unlike Strength Batteries, there isn't even much way for a GM to just hand out staff mana, since it's a property bought with EP (currently 200 per point, so compare say 8 points of staff mana at 1600 EP to going from 32 attributes to 36 attributes for 1500 EP).

Would you rather face:

ST 8 + Staff mana 8
DX 12
IQ 12

or

ST 8
DX 14
IQ 14

for example?

[Axly Suregrip]

Here is an idea.

Part of why missile spells are used a lot more than thrown spells is their delivery mechanism. Compare a missile spell shot at 2 MHx range has no DX loss due to range while a thrown spell cannot go 1 hex at no loss.

What if there were less effect thrown spells that could travel like missile spells. (Example, instead of Sleep, it is Hestitate. Target pauses for a single turn of no action.)

Or, what if thrown spells worked like creation spell range. That is, with no DX penalty for range, but only a maximum range of 1 MHx.


Another approach would be to add small limitations to missile spells. Since thrown spells are great at short range, why not say missile spells cannot be used against an adjacent foe or a foe in the same hex. Then every wizard needs to have a fallback plan for when someone gets in his/her face. This makes spells like hammertouch, blast, shock shield, freeze, sleep and rope more viable. Even Drop Weapon.

[Steve Jackson]

I am also reminded that in the first edition, a Rod could hold up to 20ST and could unleash it all as a single fireball.

Poof.