Charms provide infinite ST

[hcobb]

Apprentice of infinite ST production
ST 8 DX 15 IQ 9 (A 32 point character.)
Staff, empty 149 point powerstone, +2 Charm
Aid, Staff, Literacy

Turn one: casts Aid +1 ST on himself.
This fails 0.46% of the time, costing 1 ST.
There is a triple result 4.63% of the time, gaining a net +2 ST.
There is a double result 4.63% of the time, gaining a net +1 ST.
Otherwise the ST rides on as he casts the Aided ST back on himself over and over again.

He gains 0.13 fatigue per casting, 1.5 fatigue per minute, 93 fatigue per hour.

I.e. he recharges the powerstone in only eight hours.

Is a +2 Charm worth $100k? Howaboutism if it recharges a $150k powerstone every eight hour shift?

[warhorse11h]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Apprentice of infinite ST production
ST 8 DX 15 IQ 9 (A 32 point character.)
Staff, empty 149 point powerstone, +2 Charm
Aid, Staff, Literacy

Turn one: casts Aid +1 ST on himself.
This fails 0.46% of the time, costing 1 ST.
There is a triple result 4.63% of the time, gaining a net +2 ST.
There is a double result 4.63% of the time, gaining a net +1 ST.
Otherwise the ST rides on as he casts the Aided ST back on himself over and over again.

He gains 0.13 fatigue per casting, 1.5 fatigue per minute, 93 fatigue per hour.

I.e. he recharges the powerstone in only eight hours.

Is a +2 Charm worth $100k? Howaboutism if it recharges a $150k powerstone every eight hour shift?

Originally Posted by guymc View Post
The limitation applies only to increasing a stat. In the case of an Aid spell cast as part of a joint spellcasting ritual, the ST is immediately expended as magical energy, not held for any significant time. If trying to raise someone’s physical strength so they can lift a great weight, etc. the Rule of Five would apply.

Sir, I am posting the above in reply to your post. It is from an earlier post regarding Aid spells. At the time, you accepted the above as valid. I would stipulate, sir, that your charmed ST recharger is therefore invalid as it is not part of a joint spellcasting ritual and therefore falls under the limit of 5 and dramatically reduces the effect of the effort.

For what it is worth, if I were the GM, I would allow the recharge effort to complete and then rule that the powerstone was ruined by having too much energy pushed into it at one time. Or else, I would wait for the natural 18 die roll and rule that your Aid reaction had run away with you and caused you to explode, doing 1D6 per ST of Aid damage to anyone within a megahex.

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by warhorse11h

Or else, I would wait for the natural 18 die roll and rule that your Aid reaction had run away with you and caused you to explode, doing 1D6 per ST of Aid damage to anyone within a megahex.

The Charm is there to eliminate 18s. If you want to change the Charm rules you'd need to note this.

Of course I have a house rule that cleanly eliminates this loophole by specifying exactly what benefit Aid does get from a triple result.

https://www.hcobb.com/tft/house_rules.html#Spells

[warhorse11h]

Originally Posted by hcobb

The Charm is there to eliminate 18s. If you want to change the Charm rules you'd need to note this.

Of course I have a house rule that cleanly eliminates this loophole by specifying exactly what benefit Aid does get from a triple result.

https://www.hcobb.com/tft/house_rules.html#Spells

you baited the trap and I jumped right into it. Touche!

[Skarg]

Charms are pure evil, yet it seems to me that this does not work.

I don't think the Rule of 5 matters for this purpose, but Aid does not heal fatigue, and the ability to use ST from Aid only lasts 2 turns. Therefore, casting Aid on yourself to gain spell mana is almost always a losing proposition, even if you do have a 9.26% chance of getting an extra point or two because you have a +2 Charm.

So to exploit a Charm this way, I think you're doing it wrong. If you start by casting 1 ST Aid on yourself, you're going to tend to have used all your ST in 8 turns, and gained nothing. Even when you do get a double or triple, it's only gaining you 1 or 2 ST at a time, which you need to use within 2 turns, and it takes 5 ST to put 1 ST into the ST battery.

When you do get an extra point, you can either use it next turn, or you get one more turn to try to get lucky again before you lose your first lucky mana to the 2-turn duration of Aid.

If Bob opts to recharge the stone after getting a triple, what's the effect? Well, he's at +2 ST, so he uses 5 to put 1 in the powerstone, and so he saved 2 ST that time. i.e. His Charm is giving him the listed chances of saving 1 or 2 ST per 5 ST recharge, using this method.

If Bob opts to try to get double-lucky before recharging the stone, and he doesn't doesn't get lucky again, it's no loss unless he actually fails (unlikely with the &$%* Charm), so he may as well. Again these give the listed odds of +1 or +2 ST. If he got another +2, that would mean he was able to put 1 point in the powerstone for only 1 of his own ST, but that would only happen less than 1 in 25 attempts.

If the GM is generous, he might allow two more Aid attempt and then also to put ST in the powerstone before the first Aid expires... that would mean ruling that charging a Powerstone is a free action that can be done after casting a spell and before a spell expiring that turn expires... which I don't think I would allow, but if you did, it would be the only case where 1 ST Aid gives you more ST than you put into it, and even using a +2 Charm, it only happens 1 in 125 3-casting attempts.

Turn 1: Bob casts 1 ST Aid on himself, and gets a triple effect.
Turn 2: Bob casts 1 ST Aid on himself, and gets a triple effect.
Turn 3: Bob casts 1 ST Aid on himself, and gets a triple effect. (I think this is the last chance to use the ST from the first Aid spell, so right after this casting, the first Aid expires and there is not time to use it on the Powerstone.)

What if Bob instead casts a 5 ST Aid? On a normal success, he just uses the 5 ST to charge the powerstone by 1. If he gets a double or triple, though, he gets to use 10 or 15 ST. Ok, again the math is fairly simple - he gets double 4.63% of the time and triple 4.63% of the time, but 90.74% of the time it's nothing special.

There's use of time to consider to simulate what happens too, but oveall this is looking like not a great exploit - it's gaining a few percentage points of efficiency, but not a massive amount.


If this were something a guild might actually do (I don't think it is, but), you could start a whole campaign which starts: "Once upon a time, an exploitation-minded chapter of the Wizards' Guild gave a +2 Charm and a 150-point powerstone to an apprentice to recharge. Those items opened up many possibilities for the apprentice, and were worth a fortune... the apprentice is a PC... what did the PC do?"

[hcobb]

You use the Aided ST within two turns to cast a spell.

In this case the spell is an Aid ST spell.

[Skarg]

Yes, see above.