smashing with a brick

[Plane]

I was watching the 1990 remake of Night of the Living Dead and there's this scene at the start where a zombie is trying to punch in the window of a car but fails, so it leaves and grabs a brick and smashes the window in with the brick...

Definitely a lot more intelligent than Walking Dead zombies, for sure (I've never seen them go and pick up weapons). That's nearly as impressive as that one smart zombie who managed to fire a gun in that one zombie film with the shopping mall.

Anyway I was wondering what that would be in GURPS terms, maybe a Fist Load you would just use DX or Brawling to hit with?

Bricks are interesting compared to just hitting with the butt/handle of a pistol since they're less rounded... you might hit with the flat part, an edge, a corner... and that might affect the extent of injury, but I guess that's why we roll the dice.

Are fist loads just a universal +1 or are there situations where that might vary depending on how heavy it was? I could see some situations where some fist loads might work more effectively than others...

There seems like a concept difference between "I'm holding a roll of pennies to make my fist heavier, but I'm still hitting you with my knuckle flesh" and "I'm hitting you with the actual prick in my hand" in terms of contact with the enemy and whether you'd hurt yourself.

Is there any stat difference that might incentivize one or the other in different situations?

[Ulzgoroth]

I believe all fistloads are expected to be used as a striking surface. Holding a rock inside your fist and then striking with your knuckles is likely to hurt you more than the target of your punch, I suspect.

It does seem like a handy brick, a hand-axe, or a hammerstone should pack more punch than your bare minimum brass knuckles...but I can't find any rules text addressing that. (Low Tech seems to sprint into the neolithic and beyond ASAP, very few references to stone tools of any kind.)

[Anaraxes]

Improvised mace, perhaps. Lack of a handle probably makes it thrust damage instead of swing, which would make the difference between that and a fist load just a matter of terminology.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Improvised mace, perhaps. Lack of a handle probably makes it thrust damage instead of swing, which would make the difference between that and a fist load just a matter of terminology.

B271 only lists swing damage for maces, maybre thr+1 like a light club except it should probably stay reach C like a punch since bricks aren't long.

That's still 1 better than a blackjack/sap/brassknuckles which only boost punch's thr-1 to thr-0 though.

Light clubs weigh 3 pounds while blackjacks/saps weigh 1 (same as Baton and Short Staff on B273 which also do thrust-crushing ) and knuckles weigh 0.25 so I guess as long as it was at least a 3-pound brick it could warrant the +1? Standard seems to be 4.5 pounds for bricks.

Trying to hit using the shortsword/broadsword skills should cause some problems though since those are designed for use with reach 1 rather than reach C weapons.

I'm wondering if maybe the knife skill might be the closest analogy (aside from brawling) since it involves hitting with close-range weapons that are hard to parry with?

I guess if you can use a book as an improvised shield (I think it had DB 0 in one of the Dungeon Fantasy supplements) you might be able to use a brick, but maybe it would have negative DB and give -1 to all active defences in exchange for being able to do a block and shield bash with it?

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Plane

B271 only lists swing damage for maces

That's what I meant. A brick-on-a-stick would be a mace, so swing damage. But if you take the haft away, you also take away the theoretical reason swing damage does more than thrust for a given ST -- all those weapons benefit from the longer lever arm. So, you could call the brick a "mace that does thrust damage". Or you could introduce a "heavy fist load" for those 3-lb objects. Works out the same either way, so that's probably around the right damage point.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

That's what I meant. A brick-on-a-stick would be a mace, so swing damage. But if you take the haft away, you also take away the theoretical reason swing damage does more than thrust for a given ST -- all those weapons benefit from the longer lever arm. So, you could call the brick a "mace that does thrust damage". Or you could introduce a "heavy fist load" for those 3-lb objects. Works out the same either way, so that's probably around the right damage point.

I'd be inclined to argue that a heavy fist-load swung at arms length warrants swing damage.

It's a slightly shorter lever arm than a full-arm swing with a small mace or a short hammer, but not much so. Big arm-sweeping blows with just a hand aren't really effective, but is that really because arms are too short, or is it because fists are too light? I suspect the latter. I wouldn't expect most non-telegraphic swing weapon attacks to be an arm's-length sweep either, at which point the fist-load may have a longer lever arm...

Though maybe such a swing with a fistload should be required to be telegraphed.

[Rupert]

Martial Arts gives an unbroken bottle sw-1 damage, so that would be the top-end for a brick I think. The brick's heavier, but effectively shorter. I'd also rule that the brick has no-parry (or you have to parry with your arms) and/or unbalanced.

Possibly it's just a (large) fist-load, and thus is still just punch+1, but it's size allows things like two-handed punches with it. A hand-axe might be a fist-load that does cutting damage.

I think I'd just call it a fist-load, and move on.

[mr beer]

I'd call it a fist load.

If improvised weapons were a big part of my game, then I would sub-divide various options and a brick or similar objects would be a clumsy swing weapon, so it would get a penalty to hit, damage based on swing and be awful at Parrying.

[Imbicatus]

It’s really too bulky to be a fist load. I’d call it an improvised weapon, used at brawling -3 or axe/mace -2, can’t parry, and does SW-1 damage a range c, 1.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I'd be inclined to argue that a heavy fist-load swung at arms length warrants swing damage.

Based on the fact that you don't do Swing damage stabbing someone with a dagger, the rules disagree. The closest weapon is a Yawara, which gives +1 to damage with Hammer Fist. While I've never tried to hit someone with a brick, I've tried to use one as an impromptu hammer, and a real one is a lot better.