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Old 10-22-2021, 02:14 PM   #21
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Design Preferences

Quote:
Originally Posted by howitzer7 View Post
As an aside question about metal wheel guards/hubs, am I correct in thinking they have a max of 2 points? If so, are they worth it?
Correct.

As part of the General Rewrite for WG, WH, CA, etc., the rule was "10 points of basic Plastic, or equivalent weight". So, if one made the armor LR Plastic, one could only have 9 points; if Metal, 2 points, etc.
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Old 10-22-2021, 04:14 PM   #22
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Design Preferences

Yep they can go to 2 points yes.

Are they worth it? As always it depends on what is shooting at you. They provide some longevity but stopping 2 points of each attack probably won't be worth it.

Consider 1d weapon averaging 3.5 is putting 1-2 through every shot. A common 2d weapon will put though 5 points on average each shot, so with most tires you will lose a wheel after a couple or three shots. This discounts the possibility that you could have had all the metal blasted off in the first shot.

With 10 points plastic you take nothing to the tire from the first shot, the second shot is halved but you take full damage from the last shot.

All weapons that can affect wheel guards can also strip metal (even if you halve the damage of an SMG, a roll of 6 still strips a point of metal).

The only case where they absolutely win is against vehicular shotguns as they never roll for damage and so can never get a 6 and they can never penetrate.

However they are half the cost and as they are fireproof if you were going to fireproof them they are a quarter of the cost. If you were going to LR them it is also far cheaper (and with LR plastic the extra weight means you can only have 9 points rather than 10)

For me the big question is how many DPs your tire has. A Std tire with 4DPs facing a 1d weapon would on average be blown off on the 3rd hit if protected by metal (assuming no metal was stripped) - 3 x (3.5-2) = 4.5.

Those 3 shots averaging 10.5 points would not be enough to destroy 10 points of plastic and the 4 points of tire.

A plasticore on a rig has 40 dps. That would take 15 hits on average if protected by plastic. In theory metal could prevent 30 point of damage over that time (leaving you with 10). However as you would be on average losing a point of metal every 6 shots (assuming non-explosive damage) it would protect against far less than that (18 maximum but 9 being far more likely). On that basis it is no better than the plastic.

Basically if you want to save the cost and have fireproof as a bonus and are likely to be facing 1d or less weapons metal may be better. Against 2D weapons (or even 1d+ they are worse than plastic.

IMO.

Last edited by swordtart; 10-22-2021 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 10-23-2021, 06:16 AM   #23
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Default Re: Design Preferences

2pt Metal Guards , over 2pt Metal Hubs protecting inner & outer 32 DP Steelbelted Truck Solids are good combo . Those Hubs & Guards can blunt multiple attacks versus that Tire positions .

(We use the correct +33% DP for Steelbelting , over the often repeated incorrect +25% DP from original ADQ 6/1 Uncle Albert presentation.)
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Old 10-23-2021, 08:02 AM   #24
howitzer7
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
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Default Re: Design Preferences

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer View Post
(We use the correct +33% DP for Steelbelting , over the often repeated incorrect +25% DP from original ADQ 6/1 Uncle Albert presentation.)
CWC (Blackbook) pg. 72:
Steelbelting increases the cost and weight of any tire by 50%, and adds 25% to its DP (round down).

UACFH pg. 158:
Steelbelting increases the cost and weight of any tire by 50%, and adds 25% to its DP (round down).


Seems more a revision, to me. A 33% increase would render the basic Solid tire almost pointless and expensive compared to a steelbelted Puncture Resistant, save for the reduced damage vs. spikes/debris.
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Last edited by howitzer7; 10-23-2021 at 08:30 AM. Reason: formatting
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Old 10-23-2021, 01:54 PM   #25
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Default Re: Design Preferences

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Originally Posted by Racer View Post
2pt Metal Guards , over 2pt Metal Hubs protecting inner & outer 32 DP Steelbelted Truck Solids are good combo . Those Hubs & Guards can blunt multiple attacks versus that Tire positions .
Depends on whether one considers Explosive DWs "burst effect", or not (5+ to Metal Removal, vs 6). Then there's those HESH rounds.... (And when a typical volley is doing 14-21 hits, well, Do The Math.)
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Old 10-24-2021, 01:21 AM   #26
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Design Preferences

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer View Post
2pt Metal Guards , over 2pt Metal Hubs protecting inner & outer 32 DP Steelbelted Truck Solids are good combo . Those Hubs & Guards can blunt multiple attacks versus that Tire positions .

(We use the correct +33% DP for Steelbelting , over the often repeated incorrect +25% DP from original ADQ 6/1 Uncle Albert presentation.)
Truck tires are especially vulnerable to attack as they are only -1 to hit rom the side. If you go for the front tires you only need to kill one before the truck is in serious trouble (shooting at the rear set is futile s you have to remove all 4 before you suffer the big penalty).

Even so those hubs and guards would have to blunt 20 damage between them to be better than 20 points of plastic. Since each only defends on a 1-4 attack you really only blunt 2 and 2/3 damage per attack. So you need to weather 7-8 attacks for them to buy themselves into the design.

If those 7-8 attacks are 2D damage (which is likely if someone is attacking a rig) then on average they are doing 7. If we consider your disputed 32 DP tyre protected by plastic then it becomes effectively a 52 DP tyre. It lasts 7.4 attacks.

On the face of it pretty even, but that ignores the fact that for every 6 I roll on either dice you loose some metal and then you need to weather even more attacks to break even. Since many of those 2D weapons are burst you are on average going to lose a point of metal every attack so on average by attack 5 you are unprotected but will have only blunted 10 points of damage and will have suffered 11 points of tyre damage. The plastic protected truck will also have no protection come turn 5 but will have only suffered 1 point of tire damage.

If the weapons are 3D it's even worse.

Where they might be better is if you are being "nibbled to death by rats". If your enemy is really unlucky with dice rolls and regularly gets only 2-4 damage per attack they are better (since such low rolls also mean you never lose any metal).

Nuisance attacks (Peds armed with AVR or even 1/2 damage weapons) can also be subverted. 10 peds armed with SMGs at point blank range can strip the vulnerable front tire of a truck in short order. On average they are doing 20 points damage a turn and so will blow off any plastic wheel protection in 1-2 turns and be hurting the tire to boot (as hand weapons do full damage to tires).

However, as this constitutes 10 separate attacks per turn the metal gets to blunt each individually and the majority won't go through either guard or hub let alone both. They might strip a point or two of metal every turn, but you will likely survive 2-3 turns and still have a point of metal to be blunting attacks which is probably enough to get the hell out of dodge. The plastic truck will have almost certainly lost it's tire by then.

It is fairly balanced (for a change) and which is best is largely situational.
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Old 10-24-2021, 09:13 AM   #27
Magesmiley
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Snohomish, WA
Default Re: Design Preferences

Interesting how my design thoughts stack up against others'.
In general, I tried to be unpredictable in my arena vehicles. I'd change things up a lot.

Compact, Mid, Luxury are the core bodies I typically used, depending on division and concept. I did use the occasional pickup and even van if needed. And trikes in lower divisions.

Weapon-wise, rocket launchers were my go-to weapon, typically with incendiary rounds. The flaming oil jet was my go-to dropped weapon. In general, I found these to be very effective. Far too many players underestimate how effective fire can be as a weapon.
Second tier stuff included things like the recoilless rifle, blast cannon, flame cloud ejector and the occasional laser.
I did use metal armor, provided I could get a lot of it. Typically backed by some plastic or component armor. I did have some designs with horrific things like 23 points of metal on one side (the others weren't as well armored). The look on peoples' faces as it shrugged off a 20 point ATG (w/APFSDS ammo) shot made it entirely worth it.
Most of my designs actually used plain plastic armor.
Gear... Always carry a fire extinguisher was my #1 mandate. A portable was good enough for division 5. Regular for 10, 15, and sometimes 20. Improved above that. And ALL road vehicles had to have one.
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Old 10-25-2021, 04:39 PM   #28
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Default Re: Design Preferences

I would say in classic mid size and pickups ruled as the engines were a perfect fit. Once superconductors and plat cats came along the other body types became much more viable (you no longer needed a super power plant for a luxury or a large plant for a compact).

Once component armor came along the big cars got a boost. A lux with sloped armor and bunch of CA with the same weapons package as a mid size is almost the same cost.

Agree RLs are a high power to cost weapon, but they are pretty bad vs metal armor. In the game of rock-paper-scissors if you go with a RL build and face metal armor you are screwed.

Agree flaming oil is the best dropped weapon - 25 shots!

Agree fire extinguishers are (almost) mandatory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magesmiley View Post
Interesting how my design thoughts stack up against others'.
In general, I tried to be unpredictable in my arena vehicles. I'd change things up a lot.

Compact, Mid, Luxury are the core bodies I typically used, depending on division and concept. I did use the occasional pickup and even van if needed. And trikes in lower divisions.

Weapon-wise, rocket launchers were my go-to weapon, typically with incendiary rounds. The flaming oil jet was my go-to dropped weapon. In general, I found these to be very effective. Far too many players underestimate how effective fire can be as a weapon.
Second tier stuff included things like the recoilless rifle, blast cannon, flame cloud ejector and the occasional laser.
I did use metal armor, provided I could get a lot of it. Typically backed by some plastic or component armor. I did have some designs with horrific things like 23 points of metal on one side (the others weren't as well armored). The look on peoples' faces as it shrugged off a 20 point ATG (w/APFSDS ammo) shot made it entirely worth it.
Most of my designs actually used plain plastic armor.
Gear... Always carry a fire extinguisher was my #1 mandate. A portable was good enough for division 5. Regular for 10, 15, and sometimes 20. Improved above that. And ALL road vehicles had to have one.
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Old 10-26-2021, 09:02 AM   #29
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Default Re: Design Preferences

Quote:
Originally Posted by juris View Post
I would say in classic mid size and pickups ruled as the engines were a perfect fit. Once superconductors and plat cats came along the other body types became much more viable (you no longer needed a super power plant for a luxury or a large plant for a compact).

Once component armor came along the big cars got a boost. A lux with sloped armor and bunch of CA with the same weapons package as a mid size is almost the same cost.

Agree RLs are a high power to cost weapon, but they are pretty bad vs metal armor. In the game of rock-paper-scissors if you go with a RL build and face metal armor you are screwed.

Agree flaming oil is the best dropped weapon - 25 shots!

Agree fire extinguishers are (almost) mandatory
RLs are decent if you don't load special ammo in them. Especially if you have a luxury with 3 of them.

Some of the selection does depend a lot on the number of combatants and knowing how to identify who you want to fight. And who you don't want to. More opponents means more choices. A small game for me was 4 players, with 6-8 being closer to average.
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Old 10-27-2021, 04:50 AM   #30
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Default Re: Design Preferences

We tend to only use Volatile items in Arenas . IF we ever use them on the Road , then we make sure they're protected by FP Component Armour & Fire Extinguisher system . Avoid using them at all on larger Passenger & top end Cargo vehicles . Losing a $130K Bus & 12 paying passengers , due to a single SAM Rocket detonating will wipeout all profit margins .
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