Why does UT concealable armor suck?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by chandley

Ignoring the wearying debate inherit in that pack of statements, the armor was converted to Gurps at basically face value. Its _based_ on the much maligned Pinnacle product, but need not represent it.

Actually, it does, because if claims about it are false than the claimed behavior may not actually be possible at current technology.

Note that you can put a conventional level III or IV insert under fairly bulky clothing too. It's just not really concealable in the sense that UT seems to be thinking of, where you can realistically conceal it under normal clothing.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

Except that the notation is that they are similar in design. And there are plenty of ways you don't even need a ferrous core. So why not use the amorphous tungsten for its superior properties and get even better armor penetration?

That's what Gauss ammo is: some form of tungsten-alloy. It's lighter and cheaper than the storm carbine's ammo, because it's LIGHTER. A 4mm round weights in at a hulking .006lbs for a shot, while the 5.7mmCL comes in at .013lbs. The conventional round has to have shaped high explosive as a propellant(or it uses a binary propellant), will likely require a round that is heavily engineered to produce a lightweight cladding that is likely shed out of the barrel if it's APEP. On the otherhand, the Gauss ammo is nothing but a small "needle" or "nail" shaped projectile, one that is likely very easy to make numerous copies of in a hurry.

The 5.7mm round, with ETK does 8d pi. Even with APEP ammo(which costs $2.64 a shot, or close to $500 for a clip of ammo for the gatling carbine), that's a similar damage load-out: 28dam(so stopped by DR 84) vs 23 dam(stopped by DR 69). Neither of which is enough to stop a battle suit, though you might tickle the limbs of a TL9 suit...

Why do people constantly compare the 10mmCL to the 4mm gauss? It's like comparing a .388 Lapua to a 5.56mm. Compare things that are in the same, or similar roles. The 10mm Storm Carbine is better compared to the 10mm railgun, rather than the 4mm gauss rifle.

[Icelander]

Has it occured to anyone that the rules in High-Tech for concealing armour are... questionable, to say the least?

By those rules, it is harder (by -2) to conceal even the best design of concealable vest with a 5" by 8" trauma plate under full Carmelite habit* than it is to conceal Vulcan autocannon while naked*.

I'm not suggesting that it really ought to be possible to hide the Vulcan cannon, mind you, but just making a point about how wildly severe the Holdout penalties for armour are compared to anything else.

*-4-25+4+5=-20
**-11-7=-18

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Why do people constantly compare the 10mmCL to the 4mm gauss? It's like comparing a .388 Lapua to a 5.56mm. Compare things that are in the same, or similar roles. The 10mm Storm Carbine is better compared to the 10mm railgun, rather than the 4mm gauss rifle.

Well, as for that, maybe because the storm carbine is the most powerful automatic rifle, and the 4mm is the most powerful EM automatic rifle.

The portable railgun is respectable for power, but compares to the storm rifle, not the carbine. Pretty different lines of work. And the railgun weighs 20 pounds and has bulk -6, which might make somebody willing to use the storm rifle as a battle rifle blink. EDIT: Ok, actually that pig is clearly supposed to be compared to the 15mm anti-material rifle. Compared to which it's downright handy, but given that they're both sniper weapons the ability of the AMR to hit twice as hard with good ammo and ETK upgrade...the gauss is better if your sniper marksman can't tolerate 30 pounds or man-portable light cannon, but it's probably not the superior weapon in the ideal.

[DouglasCole]

Well, if you're comparing two things, you're either going to use a larger (10mmCL) round with a payload to deliver the penetration/damage, or use a smaller (4mm gauss) projectile with significantly more energy to try and achieve the same results.

The .338 Lapua is something like 250gr at 910m/s. the 5.56 is 62gr at 945m/s. In GURPS terms, the Lapua should have just shy of twice the penetration (it does).

The gauss rifle will fire very high sectional density nails, delivering a LOT of penetration. Likely specially formed tungsten or DU or something with density on the order of 17-20g/cc and refractory. Likely an aspect ratio of 10:1 or more (consider M829A1 sabot with aspect ratio of nearly 30).

10mm storm carbine is going to be 2:1 (pistol shape) to 4:1 (rifle shape). A standard projectile at 4:1 (meaning jacketed lead) would be about 340 grains. At 850m/s it'll do on the order of 10d pi+. Basically the same as the Pinata Stick from Black Ops.

A 4mm Gauss rifle with a 20:1 aspect ratio made of tungsten (typically given a (2) AD) at 825m/s would mass 200grains (.029lbs per shot) and deliver 9d+3(2) using my system, which is the penetration equivalent of 6d+2(3). That's not even that unreasonable a velocity to expect from a gauss rifle.

A 100gr 10:1 aspect ratio projectile, 4mm, would only need to go about 1180m/s to get that same 9d+2(2) penetration, which STILL isn't out of line here.

Anyway, overall point here is that the 10mm projectile is more suited to payloads; the dart pure armor penetration. The tunable nature of the gauss rifle makes it a bit more flexible, and you're likely talking about 1.7-3.4 times as many shots per pound for the gauss weapon.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Anyway, overall point here is that the 10mm projectile is more suited to payloads; the dart pure armor penetration. The tunable nature of the gauss rifle makes it a bit more flexible, and you're likely talking about 1.7-3.4 times as many shots per pound for the gauss weapon.

Where by payloads, you presumably mean HEMP. Most 10mm warheads are jokes, but 10mm HEMP can hold a heavy battlesuit at risk if you've drained its EMA battery.

Though of course the same carbine, upgraded, fitted with high-end ammo, and taken to its limits, will shoot right through the breastplate of the same suit. Which the gauss rifle simply won't do by the book.

[safisher]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Actually, it does, because if claims about it are false than the claimed behavior may not actually be possible at current technology.

It's a complex issue which is not completely resolved as yet AFAIK). This news spot gets at the pertinent issues:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...3572568010428#

At the time I was writing HT, DragonSkin was the hot item that everyone wanted in HT. The controversy was in favor of DS at that time, and since publication, DS lost out. So, current events after the final draft of the book was handed in have overtaken the stats, which are, at the very least, optimistic.

As for being concealable, the company had on their website a concealable version which (IIRC) was purchased by the San Diego PD.

If you are wondering, it's not clear whether this should be errata, or just Late TL8/Early TL9, or TL^. YMMV.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Well, as for that, maybe because the storm carbine is the most powerful automatic rifle, and the 4mm is the most powerful EM automatic rifle.

This is due to ommission, imho. I don't see why a Gauss 7mm(for example) couldn't be made. It would concievably throw 10d down range. The point is that the 10mmCL is a very big, powerful round, and I don't think Tzeentch bothered to stat up a "7.62" version of the railguns in Ultra-Tech.

The portable railgun is respectable for power, but compares to the storm rifle, not the carbine. Pretty different lines of work. And the railgun weighs 20 pounds and has bulk -6, which might make somebody willing to use the storm rifle as a battle rifle blink. EDIT: Ok, actually that pig is clearly supposed to be compared to the 15mm anti-material rifle. Compared to which it's downright handy, but given that they're both sniper weapons the ability of the AMR to hit twice as hard with good ammo and ETK upgrade...the gauss is better if your sniper marksman can't tolerate 30 pounds or man-portable light cannon, but it's probably not the superior weapon in the ideal.

That and the 15mm ETK has $40 bullets. That's again, $400 per weapon. The Gauss railgun can be issued on a squad basis, and has the firepower to drop a battlesuit with it's dart. The 15mm AMR is heavier.

The strength of electro-Mag weaponry is their cheap, inexpensive and lightweight ammunition. When you expend thousands of rounds trying to get one kill, that's savings. When we're talking about millions, maybe even billions of rounds of ammunition? Major savings.

A 14d APEP round that costs $8 suppresses an area just as effectively as a 6d+2 gauss round that cost six pennies. Carrying more bullets for the same amount of weight is another intriguing proposition, depending on how much armor you need to be penetrating.

I feel that people arn't looking at the paradigm enough. Battlesuits arn't the bee's knees because they make you armored like a tank. Battlesuits are awesome because they allow a single soldier to carry an arsenal approaching an IFV, while remaining protected against most anti-personal effects. They allow you to carry the sensors and comms to securely operate RPVs on the front lines and serve as a command net. They can conceal you.

Increasingly modern warfare is about one thing: if we can see you, you can die. So you stop trying to armor up to prevent kill from direct fire, and you gear up for the indirect fire and obfuscation.

[Captain-Captain]

Concealable armor with greater DR is simply found under Super Science.

Part of the reason for realistic limits on armor go back to the first Space book, where Armor increased DR by as much as 25 points per increase in TL and the TL chart then went up to 18. TL 8 Heavy Body Armor at TL 18 added 250 pts to DR!

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Which probably doesn't actually work and even if it does breaks down very quickly under actual use. It currently lacks a NIJ certification, is banned by the US Army, strongly discouraged by the USMC and the Air Force is suing Pinnacle.

Banned..? Suing..?

Details?