scaling cooldown reduction (takes recharge) limitation

Devil_Dante · 02-17-2018, 07:15 AM

In many games, every skill can be used once per "amount of seconds". Takes recharge is perfect for this.
But i was looking a different kind of cooldown: every time you do the action X, the cooldown is reduced by Y secs.

So, my idea is to create a "multistrike" advantage for my swordmaster character that works only for a couple of seconds and then needs several seconds to be readied again, but every time i attack one opponent, the recharge time is rudeced by 1 sec.

Because multistrike costs 30 points and is "always on", i assume that maximum duration can be applied. Less then 30 secs is worth -75%. Takes recharge 15 secs is worth -20%. The scaling "recharge" could be something like an "accessibility" enhancement in this case, like +10%. Could it work??

Total = -80% [6]

What do you think? Any way to improve this mechanic? (Or is there any reference?)

edit: multystrike is +20%, so extra attack 1(multystrike, +20%; takes recharge 15, fast reload, -20%; accessibility +10%)

Anaraxes · 02-17-2018, 07:36 AM

A minor point: you're actually talking about modifying the Multistrike Enhancement, not the entire ability, so you wouldn't sum the percentage values. You'd reduce the +20% for Multistrike by some amount.

Another a minor point, though a bit more important: this change improves the ability because it will become available sooner than it would be without the modification. There's a way to shorten the fixed cooldown. So, logically, it should cost more, not less, than an unmodified cooldown. The goal isn't to find a loophole in the math and doggedly only look at the arithmetic; the goal is to find a fair price by comparison with other abilities and alternative builds.

Most importantly, the times given for Maximum Duration are for abilities that are expected to be on, and beneficial, 100% of the time during the entire day. That is, you'd miss them when they're gone. In particular, this Limitation (or at least those times) are not appropriate for any combat ability. Effective infinity in GURPS combat time is around 10 seconds. An ability that lasts "only" 30 seconds per activation will be available for the entirety of just about any reasonable stretch of combat time. The pricing is meant for out-of-combat time play. For a combat ability, it would fall under the caution that a disadvantage that's not actually disadvantageous isn't worth any points. I just wouldn't allow Maximum Duration, as written, to apply to any combat ability. They're not "always on" in any meaningful sense.

(Unless your game really is about video game characters that literally always exist in the middle of combat, never have any down time or shopping trips in town, and are just saved frozen in place whenever the game is turned off, only to pick up exactly in the middle of a constant churning fight. In that case, having your combat ability for only one stretch 30 seconds out of a day, or 0.03% of the time you need it -- and you know that's going to be saved for the boss mob -- might be worth the -80% suggested.)

Devil_Dante · 02-17-2018, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

A minor point: you're actually talking about modifying the Multistrike Enhancement, not the entire ability, so you wouldn't sum the percentage values. You'd reduce the +20% for Multistrike by some amount.

Oh, you v right, don t know why i recalled that way!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Another a minor point, though a bit more important: this change improves the ability because it will become available sooner than it would be without the modification. There's a way to shorten the fixed cooldown. So, logically, it should cost more, not less, than an unmodified cooldown. The goal isn't to find a loophole in the math and doggedly only look at the arithmetic; the goal is to find a fair price by comparison with other abilities and alternative builds.

Indeed, i thought to add the "accessibility" +10%, as an enhacement instad of limitation, in this way the "takes recharge" costs -20%+10% , so it costs "more".
I suggested +10% because i thought was a fair prize. Maybe 5%?
Consider the "take recharge" limitation has been already cut in half because i used the fast reload special limitation

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Most importantly, the times given for Maximum Duration are for abilities that are expected to be on, and beneficial, 100% of the time during the entire day. That is, you'd miss them when they're gone. In particular, this Limitation (or at least those times) are not appropriate for any combat ability. Effective infinity in GURPS combat time is around 10 seconds. An ability that lasts "only" 30 seconds per activation will be available for the entirety of just about any reasonable stretch of combat time. The pricing is meant for out-of-combat time play. For a combat ability, it would fall under the caution that a disadvantage that's not actually disadvantageous isn't worth any points. I just wouldn't allow Maximum Duration, as written, to apply to any combat ability. They're not "always on" in any meaningful sense.

(Unless your game really is about video game characters that literally always exist in the middle of combat, never have any down time or shopping trips in town, and are just saved frozen in place whenever the game is turned off, only to pick up exactly in the middle of a constant churning fight. In that case, having your combat ability for only one stretch 30 seconds out of a day, or 0.03% of the time you need it -- and you know that's going to be saved for the boss mob -- might be worth the -80% suggested.)

Fair enough!! I had made same considerations after have written the post. I guess -75% is way too much. But i am not pretty sure how to price it: i mean, you can't use it in every round, so i wonder if could be -20% worth limitation.

How must be handle this kind of advantages? Generally speaking, for some switchable advantages, the duration is 1 minute. For affliction "give advantage" is 1 minute per margin of success. Should i replace "multrystrike" with "affliction, only self"?

Anaraxes · 02-18-2018, 09:24 AM

Well, we've got a couple of bounds. First, clearly the modifier is a Limitation! So the price has to be less than 0. Second, it's better than Takes Recharge, because it recharges faster.

Takes Recharge (5 sec) is -10%. Takes Recharge (15 sec) is -20%.

One general approach you sometimes see on the forums is to take the cost of various levelled traits and weight them by their probability. Here, we can be pretty sure that weapon master is going to be attacking every round. (There's Evaluate and Wait, but they don't come up as a large percentage of the time people choose a Maneuver, at least in my experience. Still, it's a point to keep in mind.) So, the recharge time is going to drop one second per second. Or in other words, the actual recharge time is going to be half as long as it seems.

(If we said the recharge time was 5 seconds, then after one second, one second has gone by on the recharge, but the recharge timeout has also dropped by one second, so we're 1 of 4. Next second, we're 2 of 3. Next turn, either the ability can be used again, or it's the last turn of recharge, depending on which way you want to round.)

So you might just call it a 10-second recharge and use the 5-second price (-10%). Or, for more granularity, just call the "Takes Recharge With Reduction" price half of the regular Takes Recharge. By that logic, 5 second recharge would be -5%, or 15s for -10%. Rounding in favor of the character (thanks to that assumption about attacking every round not being quite true) means that the ability is likely usable every 3 turns or 8 turns, respectively. (That is, 2 / 7 turns of recharging; you could use the ability on turn 1, recharge, recharge, use on turn 4. That could be described as "two turns between uses" or "every third" depending on how you like to count it.)

Devil_Dante · 03-04-2018, 10:47 AM

That s a nice point of view. Thanks.

And for the duration? As an advantage with limitation, it should last for one minute. I can reduce its duration to one round for - 35% (by FAQ)

So: extra attack (multystrike, +20%; take recharge, 10 secs rechargeable with every attack one secon, - 10%; reduce duration 1/60, - 35%) [19]

How it sounds?

02-17-2018, 07:15 AM	#1
Devil_Dante Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Italy, Rome	scaling cooldown reduction (takes recharge) limitation In many games, every skill can be used once per "amount of seconds". Takes recharge is perfect for this. But i was looking a different kind of cooldown: every time you do the action X, the cooldown is reduced by Y secs. So, my idea is to create a "multistrike" advantage for my swordmaster character that works only for a couple of seconds and then needs several seconds to be readied again, but every time i attack one opponent, the recharge time is rudeced by 1 sec. Because multistrike costs 30 points and is "always on", i assume that maximum duration can be applied. Less then 30 secs is worth -75%. Takes recharge 15 secs is worth -20%. The scaling "recharge" could be something like an "accessibility" enhancement in this case, like +10%. Could it work?? Total = -80% [6] What do you think? Any way to improve this mechanic? (Or is there any reference?) edit: multystrike is +20%, so extra attack 1(multystrike, +20%; takes recharge 15, fast reload, -20%; accessibility +10%) Last edited by Devil_Dante; 02-17-2018 at 08:01 AM.

02-17-2018, 07:36 AM	#2
Anaraxes Join Date: Sep 2007	Re: scaling cooldown reduction (takes recharge) limitation A minor point: you're actually talking about modifying the Multistrike Enhancement, not the entire ability, so you wouldn't sum the percentage values. You'd reduce the +20% for Multistrike by some amount. Another a minor point, though a bit more important: this change improves the ability because it will become available sooner than it would be without the modification. There's a way to shorten the fixed cooldown. So, logically, it should cost more, not less, than an unmodified cooldown. The goal isn't to find a loophole in the math and doggedly only look at the arithmetic; the goal is to find a fair price by comparison with other abilities and alternative builds. Most importantly, the times given for Maximum Duration are for abilities that are expected to be on, and beneficial, 100% of the time during the entire day. That is, you'd miss them when they're gone. In particular, this Limitation (or at least those times) are not appropriate for any combat ability. Effective infinity in GURPS combat time is around 10 seconds. An ability that lasts "only" 30 seconds per activation will be available for the entirety of just about any reasonable stretch of combat time. The pricing is meant for out-of-combat time play. For a combat ability, it would fall under the caution that a disadvantage that's not actually disadvantageous isn't worth any points. I just wouldn't allow Maximum Duration, as written, to apply to any combat ability. They're not "always on" in any meaningful sense. (Unless your game really is about video game characters that literally always exist in the middle of combat, never have any down time or shopping trips in town, and are just saved frozen in place whenever the game is turned off, only to pick up exactly in the middle of a constant churning fight. In that case, having your combat ability for only one stretch 30 seconds out of a day, or 0.03% of the time you need it -- and you know that's going to be saved for the boss mob -- might be worth the -80% suggested.)

02-18-2018, 09:24 AM	#4
Anaraxes Join Date: Sep 2007	Re: scaling cooldown reduction (takes recharge) limitation Well, we've got a couple of bounds. First, clearly the modifier is a Limitation! So the price has to be less than 0. Second, it's better than Takes Recharge, because it recharges faster. Takes Recharge (5 sec) is -10%. Takes Recharge (15 sec) is -20%. One general approach you sometimes see on the forums is to take the cost of various levelled traits and weight them by their probability. Here, we can be pretty sure that weapon master is going to be attacking every round. (There's Evaluate and Wait, but they don't come up as a large percentage of the time people choose a Maneuver, at least in my experience. Still, it's a point to keep in mind.) So, the recharge time is going to drop one second per second. Or in other words, the actual recharge time is going to be half as long as it seems. (If we said the recharge time was 5 seconds, then after one second, one second has gone by on the recharge, but the recharge timeout has also dropped by one second, so we're 1 of 4. Next second, we're 2 of 3. Next turn, either the ability can be used again, or it's the last turn of recharge, depending on which way you want to round.) So you might just call it a 10-second recharge and use the 5-second price (-10%). Or, for more granularity, just call the "Takes Recharge With Reduction" price half of the regular Takes Recharge. By that logic, 5 second recharge would be -5%, or 15s for -10%. Rounding in favor of the character (thanks to that assumption about attacking every round not being quite true) means that the ability is likely usable every 3 turns or 8 turns, respectively. (That is, 2 / 7 turns of recharging; you could use the ability on turn 1, recharge, recharge, use on turn 4. That could be described as "two turns between uses" or "every third" depending on how you like to count it.)

03-04-2018, 10:47 AM	#5
Devil_Dante Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Italy, Rome	Re: scaling cooldown reduction (takes recharge) limitation That s a nice point of view. Thanks. And for the duration? As an advantage with limitation, it should last for one minute. I can reduce its duration to one round for - 35% (by FAQ) So: extra attack (multystrike, +20%; take recharge, 10 secs rechargeable with every attack one secon, - 10%; reduce duration 1/60, - 35%) [19] How it sounds?