03-04-2014, 12:30 AM | #11 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Wrangling horses, driving herds, remudas
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On the other hand, if running unencumbranced expends only 1/3rd to half the FP per hour for the horse as running with a rider at Medium encumbrance, as it does under GURPS rules for a human, that would mean that 20 miles with a rider and 60 miles without one are only equivalent to a 40-50 mile ride with a rider, in terms of fatiguing the horse. If that's true, then it becomes possible to get to Zindalankh, for example, on the evening of the third day since the mounts are stolen, without pushing them inhumanly hard. On the first day, the horses would have to run 80 miles, but it would be possible to water and feed them well with oats at two points along that route and all of it would be covered in lush grass. Those horses who weren't in shape to run further the next day could get at least a half-day's rest around Somraggah, only moving as far forward as would be necessary to graze out all grass around it. From Somraggah, it's 60 miles to Wakirnayskul and 60 miles from Wakirnayskul to Zindalankh. I'm guessing Somraggah will be the first collection point for stragglers and Wakirnayskul and Zindalankh will serve the same purpose. The animals that arrive at Zindalankh after three days of running without falling out will have some one or two days of rest there while the stragglers and the column of running hobgoblin infantry catch up with them. As following them into the Emir's lands will pose political complications for the Bey, for all that Emir is supposed to be his loyal subordinate, the PCs are hoping for a delay in the pursuit for a few days while the politics get sorted out. The Emir will promise all the dispatch possible, sending his own men after these vile blackguards and horse thieves, all the while obstructing useful pursuit and accepting a gift of at least a thousand horses.* *Depending on how well the PCs manage to negotiate with him.
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03-04-2014, 12:59 AM | #12 | ||||||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Wrangling horses, driving herds, remudas
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A loss of 10% of mostly the weakest animals wouldn't be disastrous at all, as the most important part of the herd are the 25% of the best horses, the ones who are potential endurance racing champions or, in other words, extremely fine quality scouting and outriding cavalry mounts. Basically, any horse that wouldn't make a prime cavalry service mount isn't one that it is important to steal at that particular time. Quote:
Even so, it's an interesting point that any pursuers will be riding over grasslands eaten bare, as well as the organisational skills of the PCs can manage. They'll probably divide into several columns and leave a decent route of uneaten grass for a column or two of stragglers, but for pursuers behind those, they'll leave no choice but to leave the route with the good watering holes in order to find uneaten grass. If it forces pursuers to have to send for a supply column of oats and carried water, that's a nice bonus. Even if it only forces them to waste some extra time per day in finding grazing, it still means that the pursuing cavalry won't catch up as easily as I had imaginated. I had thought that a thousand horses could easily catch ten thousand, going by analogy with marching armies, where adding numbers adds the time it takes to get anywhere. But maybe I was too pessimistic, as a thousand ridden horses that will be going over already grazed trails eaten dry by ten thousand horses might not make such good time. It all depends on whether 10-20 horses per man slows the larger group of horses down, because they have to be constantly driving them back to the group and stopping to take care of them, or it speeds them up, because it means an effectively endless stream of remounts, meaning that most of the horses are without any encumbrance for the vast majority of the day's travel. Quote:
But my WAG, based on nothing more than the expectation that the experts who certified the animals ready for a 2,000 mile long drive knew what they were about, is that this will be a rare occurance. Basically, it's a combination of a HT 12-13 horse failing a HT check and a skill 14-16 expert failing to see the signs of it during the passing process. Quote:
The best horse wrangler in the world isn't necessarily going to know how to command a thousand other wranglers, organise an extremely complex system of watches, feedings, waterings, routes and collection points or be able to stymie and outguess pursuers by denying them forage along the route. Quote:
And how many horses can each one reasonably take care off without suffering penalties to Animal Handling? For example, with these ten thousand horses, how many of the 1,200 men with them are truly necessary as full-time wranglers for the remuda and how many of them can serve as outriding cavalry, only coming back to the main herd (or likely one of several columns of it) to change horses? Quote:
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03-04-2014, 10:23 AM | #13 | |
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Re: Wrangling horses, driving herds, remudas
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FWIW, the link says 250-400 per cowboy, with the largest herd driven to be around 15,000 cattle. The daily mileage is much slower, of course, but that's a limit on the speed of cattle and keeping them in shape for the market. |
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03-04-2014, 11:51 AM | #14 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Wrangling horses, driving herds, remudas
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Pessimistically, I was thinking that up to ten people with Animal Handling 12+ might be needed per 100 horses that are being driven in a running group. Optimistically, I had considered that the PCs might, given very successful organisational rolls, get away with leaving only 200 wranglers with the remuda herd* of 10,000 horse (less the mounts for the ones away as cavalry). Going by the single source I found that mentioned numbers of horses and wranglers on long drives, I thought it was unlikely that driving 50+ horses per man was an unmodified Animal Handling roll. Granted, a dozen men are noted as driving 1,100 head and 40 men drive 3,000, but those are mentioned as feats that were recorded, noticed and admired. That's probably an example of a successful roll at a penalty. And the desire to roughly double the travel times from the examples above** will probably call for fewer animals per wrangler, if only because parts of the way the animals will be running. Also, loss rates are rarely mentioned, but in many cases, the drivers pick up replacements from wild horses en route, which is not a possibility for my PC horse thieves. They'll want to assign enough wranglers so that animals that run out of the herd can be caught without opening up an opportunity for others to stray. *Actually, more likely to be three to twelve groups of wranglers and horses going slightly different routes, but I digress. **Granted, 40 miles per day over thousands of miles which include the Mojave Desert and the Jornada del Muerto is considerably more impressive than 80 miles per day over 200 miles of perfect country followed by 50 miles per day over 150 miles of desert outskirts, good desert roads with oases and only a 50 mile stretch of truly dry desert without oases and springs.
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03-04-2014, 02:52 PM | #15 | |||||
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Re: Wrangling horses, driving herds, remudas
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03-05-2014, 08:51 AM | #16 | ||||||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Wrangling horses, driving herds, remudas
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On the other hand, catching a bolting group of cattle requires less speed than catching a spirited hunter with Move 8 (Enhanced Move 16) if he decides he disagrees with the route being taken. And from my limited experience of horses and cows, horses are a lot more curious, mobile and prone to panic than the stodgy cows. Of course, longhorns may be considerably more active than our European cows, which are the very picture of docility. If cattle stampede, it is indeed a very terrible thing and hard to stop. But it generally takes quite a bit to get the kind of cows that I've seen to even notice you, whereas horses shy away at nearly anything. So minor distractions that cattle don't notice might serve to scatter horses, which, with their much greater move and endurance, might mean quite a job rounding them up. Quote:
The culture in question might be compared to Arabic-esque or Persian-ised steppe peoples. Think Bokhara and Tajiks, Uzbeks and suchlike. As such, most war mounts are mares and war horses are not expected to bite or kick in combat, but instead carry the rider past the enemy while he shoots arrows, throws javelins or spears him with a light lance. The horses are between 3-6 years of age, mostly, with a majority being age 4-5.* The weights range from around 700 lbs., small hunters that might be compared to jennets or hobbies, up to coursers of around 1,100 lbs. Those coursers are expected to carry armoured cavalrymen into combat, but they are not expected to actually bite or kick themselves. Riding over foes is done, though, but these horses are mostly only halfway through their war training and shock cavalry training hasn't started. In general, the training levels of the horses are fairly high, but only as hunting horses, outriders and all-purpose riding animals. They only have 2-6 months of training as cavalry mounts in formation by the Bey's men as part of being rounded up for the tribute to his suzerain. A good quarter of them had been fully trained as light cavalry mounts by their former owners, though, but that generally doesn't include shock tactics or riding over foes. There are, however, some exceptions. One hundred young stallions of the Raurin breed, all of them big and strong, not to mention spirited and aggressive in comparison with the baseline for their breed, were being paid as part of this tribute (which was one of the things that infuriated the nobles enough that the PCs were able to subvert many of the guards and trainers to steal the horses instead). Those were assigned expert trainers and cavalrymen to train them as shock cavalry. That training is not finished, but the goal was to use them as true warhorses. They are fully trained as riding horses and even as cavalry horses, but they do not yet kick and bite at command (nor is that what they were specifically bred for). Those are horses chosen as likely to be able to do so, however, so they are very aggressive compared to the usual run of light cavalry horses. Those horses were kept separately, where the cavalry was housed, with one older trainer and one apprentice horse trainer assigned to every two horses. The presence of all these mares somewhat complicates having them around the other horses, especially as the mares are intended for combat service and not for breeding (there are brood mares located where the stallions were headed). There are also around fifty stallions owned by noblemen or bandit chiefs (which are very often the same men) who may kick and bite in combat. Those are not part of any herd, however, but are the battle mounts of their owners, who are stealing the herd. *There are older horses there, but only as personal mounts of the trainers or cavalrymen who were stationed there. The raiders led by the PCs also have mounts who may be older, especially the war trained horses that the experienced warriors are riding. Quote:
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Four main columns of horses, each with twenty outriders in front and a group of twenty following to round up stragglers. With the main body of 2,500 horses for each column, one hundred wranglers, some of whom are riding some distance from the column and assigned to prevent animals from bolting too far away. That's 560 men needed in total. Then we can assign some four groups of ten each to rounding up strays behind the main columns, bringing the total to 600. Then we've got 400-500 men who can each take three good horses and function as cavalry to deter pursuit or attack by the locals. After they've scattered the Bey's men on the second or third day, at least two hundred of them can then form a colum of any strays that have been rounded up and ride close to the routes taken by the four columns, also rounding up on the way any animals that were left to rest an extra day by the ones in front. Quote:
The horses arrived gaunt, but a point is made of them having survived (and indeed the story is told because it emphases the skill of the wranglers in getting the horses through alive), so while the loss numbers aren't mentioned, one may infer that the majority did survive. Depending on how one is to interpret the comment that they 'were by now well broke to travel and gave little trouble along the way', one could even imagine that most or all of them made it.
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03-06-2014, 11:33 AM | #17 |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Number of remounts a cavalryman can manage on patrol
Another, related question is how many remounts an outrider can lead along with him as he travels without slowing down or requiring Animal Handling at more than skill+4 to avoid losing them?
And what kind of rolls do Mongols with twelve remounts need to make during their daily travel? I imagine that riding one horse and leading two by the reins is fairly uncomplicated, with some hassles arising from time to time, but the convenience of being able to switch to fresher horses at need easily outweighing it. But at what point do extra remounts to lead along stop being a benefit, in that you have to spend less time on each individual mount, and start being a hindrance, in that taking care of them slows your travel time or at least fatigues you personally enough so that you are not prepared to do your job once you arrive at your destination at the end of the frenzied gallop with a string of horses? To take a concrete example, the PCs have more good horses than they have riders to serve as cavalry. How many horses should they assign each of the 100 horse archers selected to serve as outriders and cavalry screen?
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03-06-2014, 03:25 PM | #18 | ||
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Re: Number of remounts a cavalryman can manage on patrol
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Or watch the instinct to herd of this champion cutting horse. The rider does little except hang on -- the horse "cuts" the calf from the herd, and keeps him cut out until the rider lets him know it's okay to let the calf return. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCRzUjn4I7I The horsemen uses the horse's instincts to his advantage, picking the horse he wants to ride from the herd, cutting it out, roping it, and saddling it. Not a big problem, generally. On a different note, the ability to manage your horse with only the slightest control inputs -- to extend and collect the gate, to spin rapidly, stay balanced and quick to react, etc. -- can be seen here (forgive the audio on both): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKQgTiqhPbw and the beginning display here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaozG0-SUwc Notice the hands are free to manage a shield, lance, sword, etc. It's not presented that way, but this is the vestiges of war training, and it's quite within the realm of what horses do naturally. It marshals their protective instincts -- to tuck in the head, hold the body flexed, and to whirl away from danger. Horsemen once used the instincts of the horse, particularly his sheer joy in running, and his natural athleticism, on the battlefield. It seems very unnatural, but it's really only a harnessing of the animal. Here's a great view of the horse as a partner. Watch this horse's ears. Forward ears show attentiveness, alertness. Backed ears show pain, anger, or frustration. Here they show a keen interest -- this horse is having a blast negotiating the obstacles. It even neighs at the end, as if to say "That was fun!" Instinct! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PXL9N9WU8E The quality horse has its mind in the game. It plays well with others, wants to be ridden, it enjoys its "job." It's not just excellent physicality that good breeding produces, but a good temperament, a spirit well suited to the task. Horses will kill themselves if they enjoy doing what they love. Watch this barrel horse at 1:30. It's quivering with excitement. Let's go! Let's go! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8Ki2sUpIrA |
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03-06-2014, 05:28 PM | #19 | |||||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Number of remounts a cavalryman can manage on patrol
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I'm looking for guidelines on a good balance between having enough extra mounts to be able to perform prodigious feats of cavalry screening, but not enough so that the outriders have to have their own caravan, with all the problems of predictability, restricted routes and having to spend the time wrangling horses instead of riding screening patrols that implies. Quote:
They'll stay behind in a town to send out patrols in small groups to deny the opposition intelligence during the first day, while the rest of the horses and men start moving away (less the ones detailed to wait for stragglers or round up strays). On the second day, they'll screen a bigger force of cavalry and hopefully allow them to flank a pursuing force in a planned battle to cover the retreat. During the third day they'll start their own movement toward the eventual goal, but they'll be going the longest route of any of the PCs' force, serving to screen the entire force from an enemy coming down from the north-west road (or trails leading from that direction). All in all, between patrolling, participating in a battle and drawing off pursuit and blocking enemy scouts from getting too close to the main force, the more miles they can ride in four days, the better. During the first day and part of the second, they can leave spare mounts behind in a safe location with a small holding force, but after the battle, they'll be engaged in a race to catch up to friendlies by a long, sweeping route, all the while trying to keep unfriendly scouts away from them. So they'll have a hard time managing a herd while having to be ready to skirmish at any point. But it's entirely out of the question that they'll do all this work on one horse. They'll get anywhere from two to six horses each. I had planned to give them three mounts each, like the larger cavalry group which also serves in the battle and will then take a slightly shorter route to catch up with the main force, but in light of the fact that they are expected to skirmish the day before and then ride a longer route the day after, I suspect they'll need the ability to change horses even more. At what point do you think extra horses will slow them down or weaken them as a combat unit? Beyond two? Beyond three? Quote:
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Mostly, that would be teaching them formations. Is that a long process? Quote:
Households without horses are not accounted among citizens with rights to vote on the tribal leaders and owning a champion racehorse or jumper is a source of pride beyond any other form of wealth. Horsemanship is more important than intelligence, skill at arms or even courage, in determining the worth of a man.
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03-08-2014, 09:20 AM | #20 | |||
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Re: Number of remounts a cavalryman can manage on patrol
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"Next, by prior arrangement, the president rode horseback 65 miles from Laramie to Cheyenne. Changing mounts three times, for a total of four horses ridden, Roosevelt was accompanied by 10 prominent citizens, including Sen. Francis E. Warren, U.S. Marshal Frank Hadsell, Deputy U.S. Marshal Joe LeFors, Albany County Sheriff N.K. Boswell of Laramie, local stockman R. S. Van Tassell, and Black Hills Forest Reserve Supervisor and former Deadwood, S. D. lawman Seth Bullock...The party ate lunch at the Van Tassell ranch and arrived in Cheyenne at 4:00 p.m. A lengthy procession and parade brought Roosevelt to a speaker's stand at 15th and Ferguson (now Carey Avenue). At 7:00 p.m., he spoke to a crowd of approximately 10,000." See more at: http://www.wyohistory.org/encycloped....yBOsnr61.dpuf Quote:
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