Knowing Your Own Strength - Tank Smasher

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Wavefunction

Since in GURPS damage scales with the square root of Kinetic Energy, if we were to rescale the Knowing Your Own Strength damage table so it matches the basic lift table, we'd need to adjust it so that each +20 corresponds to x10 damage, and each +6 corresponds to x2. This would mean that each +1 was roughly x1.12. Using this and rounding down when possible, we get the following table:

For cinematic (not realistic reasons), I'd rather scale damage a lot slower than lift (BL). A Spider-Man with ST30 that lifts 10 tons but has a thrust of 5d+2 is still incredibly strong since he has the damaging power of an M16. He's just not as lethal in a mirror match (ST30 = HP30) since his average damage is ~20 without skill or weapon bonuses. Likewise, he would easily survive a hit from a ST40 (max lift around 100 tons) doing 7d thrust ~25 plus weapon/skill bonuses. Throw in a level or two of IT:DR, sprinkle on DR, and you have a pretty classic superhero slugfest.

If you move to the ST30 = 10d of damage (avg 35 damage prior to bonuses), you just have too much damage for the number of HP.

Having numbers in a narrow range feels workable if there's a chart to rescale the DR and weapon damage of equipment.

[smurf]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Only 1pt per +1 is rather nice. Its simple math then to buy enough regular ST to get the lift you want then buy up Striking ST for the damage you want.
I am ok with that.
The base ST gives you a level of randomness, the additional damage is easy to calculate and purchase.
Lifting ST is versatile and useful for so many things that an all inclusive price will never be fair and a perfect balance towards other attacks.
I also don't like Swing and think it should be a force multiplier not a simple flat bonus.
I could go with +1 per die, and maybe an enhancement that increases that.
We already have Claws (Blunt), Karate, and Extra Long Arms that do this anyhow.
In fact why not just create a new advantage based off Long Arms.
Enhanced Striking Power [10/level] You have a powerful musculature or other enhancement that allows you to get more striking power out of your arms.
This gives you +1 per die Swing damage and must be bought for each limb that can get the bonus.
Note: This is similar to Extra Arms (Long) but grants no increase in Reach and does not have the drawback of needing more room to swing. This is treated as a feature.

Edit: Note that I am with Bruno on a high ST level needed to lift things for Supers.
Super Effort on ST I never really liked because it required a chart lookup and that breakpoint issue where until you had a high enough ST it was counterproductive. It also made ST cost too much. Mind you it was better then most other ideas I had seen or considered at the time.

I like that. Of course punching the tank may hurt your own hand.

However with this Power you can do all the fun super stuff.

The problem is the 10pts per level. If we go back to innate attacks and just use Crushing for 5pts, then start the mod tricks:

-30% for C attack
-15 % for Temp disad. Berserk
-10% Biological
-20% (?) Only vs non living material
-20% No Knock Back
-20% (?) All out attack only.

Divides Armour (3) = +100%

Overall 15%

100 ST = 500 + 15% = 75

But you can toy around with it like that.

[Edges]

Originally Posted by Infornific

In GURPS Supers, there kind of/sort of is. Once Super Effort ST gets going, you've got a situation where you boost Lifting and Striking ST by 50% for every level costing 40 points, or multiply them by ten for every six levels. Similarly IT: Damage Reduction lets you (in a sense) multiply hit points by ten for every 150 points.

So if you want to treat that as a genre specific Advantage, you could just create something like:

Super Strength [50/level] Each level multiplies ST as follows:

Level 1 = *1.5
Level 2 = *2
Level 3 = *3
Level 4 = *5
Level 5 = *7
Level 6 = *10

Every six more levels multiplies ST by ten again. This increases ST both for damage and calculating BL as well as giving the character equivalent damage reduction.

I have used this exact thing for a supers game and it worked wonderfully.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by naloth

If you move to the ST30 = 10d of damage (avg 35 damage prior to bonuses), you just have too much damage for the number of HP.

Having numbers in a narrow range feels workable if there's a chart to rescale the DR and weapon damage of equipment.

That's a reason why I'm adverse to drastically changing the damage progression - it's a good idea for a 5e-style edition change, not so much for a "Slot this in with minimal effort at character creation" kind of module.

Originally Posted by Infornific

So if you want to treat that as a genre specific Advantage, you could just create something like:

Super Strength [50/level] Each level multiplies ST as follows:

Level 1 = *1.5
Level 2 = *2
Level 3 = *3
Level 4 = *5
Level 5 = *7
Level 6 = *10

Every six more levels multiplies ST by ten again. This increases ST both for damage and calculating BL as well as giving the character equivalent damage reduction.

Striking only would cost 25/level, Lifting Only 15/level, Damage Reduction only would cost 10/level.

If that seems too cheap just up the cost per level. Try to stick to a multiple 10 so it is divisible by 5 and 2.

(While we're redoing everything, please for the love of little appleberries, can change it to "Injury Reduction" instead of "Damage Reduction"? Most confusing name choice ever.)

The problem I have with this is the same as the problem I have with Enhanced Move, and I really have with Enhanced Move with Second Nature - there are now two scales for buying attributes again. It smells of the 3e problem where you have an orc with ST 15 and a human with ST 15 and they each paid different amounts for it.

Blech. Blech. Blech. It feels dirty. it feels REALLY dirty because it doesn't have any guidelines about when you buy regular ST vs Super ST, so you end up with situations where you've bought (eg) 6 levels of Super ST, and buying one level of regular ST for 10 points now gives you +100 ST. Should that be right?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

All this talk makes me think if perhaps the post-LogST version of GURPS should have logarithmic damage, DR and HP values (like EABA), so that, say, every +N to a damage roll represents an ×10 increase in destructive capability.

The problem with that is that it becomes really ugly to try and apply DR. Let's say damage is normal up to 3d6, and then becomes 3d6+log(damage dice)*10-5. This means 10d is 3d6+5, 30d is 3d6+10, 100d is 3d6+15, etc. DR is unchanged up to 10, and then becomes log(DR)*10, so DR 100 becomes DR 20 (which will resist a 30d attack).

Now, consider shooting at someone who has, under vanilla rules, DR 100, and who is also behind a wall with DR 100. Under the new DR, both are DR 20. Under vanilla rules, either by itself resists a 30d attack, both together resist a 60d attack. The problem is, the 30d attack is 3d6+10, the 60d attack is 3d6+13, so DR 20 + DR 20 = DR 23? Or should they add up to DR 40, at which point you can resist an attack that is 3,000d in normal GURPS.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

T<snip>
Now, consider shooting at someone who has, under vanilla rules, DR 100, and who is also behind a wall with DR 100. Under the new DR, both are DR 20. Under vanilla rules, either by itself resists a 30d attack, both together resist a 60d attack. The problem is, the 30d attack is 3d6+10, the 60d attack is 3d6+13, so DR 20 + DR 20 = DR 23? Or should they add up to DR 40, at which point you can resist an attack that is 3,000d in normal GURPS.

I can see how that will take some getting used to, but it's not a whole lot different than how you use BL when you're combining ST to do a coordinated ST feat. You can have a rule of thumb like when you gestalt powers together.

[Edges]

Originally Posted by Bruno

(While we're redoing everything, please for the love of little appleberries, can change it to "Injury Reduction" instead of "Damage Reduction"? Most confusing name choice ever.)

The problem I have with this is the same as the problem I have with Enhanced Move, and I really have with Enhanced Move with Second Nature - there are now two scales for buying attributes again. It smells of the 3e problem where you have an orc with ST 15 and a human with ST 15 and they each paid different amounts for it.

Blech. Blech. Blech. It feels dirty. it feels REALLY dirty because it doesn't have any guidelines about when you buy regular ST vs Super ST, so you end up with situations where you've bought (eg) 6 levels of Super ST, and buying one level of regular ST for 10 points now gives you +100 ST. Should that be right?

I actually found it worked quite well in practice. It's true, with it there are two scales for buying ST. But they are for different types of characters. I used it for a supers game in which nearly all supers were tougher and stronger just because they were supers. One could buy up to 6 levels of normal ST. Supers cold also buy Super ST.

If you buy one level of regular ST for 10 points and 6 levels of Super ST for 300 points, you have spent 310 points and have an effective ST of 110 (11x10). Moreover, the Super ST advantage had No Signature and countermeasures baked in. So our example character would look like someone with ST 11 and if they stepped into Dr Drainem's Power Drain Field, they would only have ST 11. To save a few points, for 290 you can have an effective ST 98 (14x7). They wouldn't have as much "Injury Reduction" as Smashem McSkinny above but they spent 20 points less and are quite a bit stronger when without their powers. Someone like Thor would have max normal ST (because so much buffness) and 8 levels of Super ST (the max allowed in that particular setting) giving him a grand total of ST 320 for 460 points.

Someone could take one level of Super ST (your orc) instead of 5 levels of normal ST (you human) for the same amount of points and get "Injury Reduction" (1.5) and the ability to be surprisingly strong. But they will also face the prospect of losing those advantages when faced with Dr Drainem.

And while we're dreaming of renaming the Most Confusing Name Choice Ever, can we call it "Injury Divisor?"

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Bruno

That's a reason why I'm adverse to drastically changing the damage progression - it's a good idea for a 5e-style edition change, not so much for a "Slot this in with minimal effort at character creation" kind of module.

Sure, understood. It's just a consequence of using something like log ST in place of "normal" ST.

(While we're redoing everything, please for the love of little appleberries, can change it to "Injury Reduction" instead of "Damage Reduction"? Most confusing name choice ever.)

Yes, I still run into occasions where people want to apply it to damage instead of injury.

Blech. Blech. Blech. It feels dirty. it feels REALLY dirty because it doesn't have any guidelines about when you buy regular ST vs Super ST, so you end up with situations where you've bought (eg) 6 levels of Super ST, and buying one level of regular ST for 10 points now gives you +100 ST. Should that be right?

I'd rather have one unified system, that works across multiple abilities with a similar progression. It's easier to keep track of and use. Besides, when you have different ways to buy attributes it becomes a game of how to save points.

[Otaku]

Not that I've been the most use this thread, but I will second a desire to rename IT:DR to something less confusing, as well as preferring a unified Strength buying system. The latter isn't just a matter of the "feel" of GURPS: this was tried before, remember? We had the Enhanced ST rules in 3e, which were supposed to take into account not only how different ST hits a diminishing return far more quickly than DX and IQ. This also replaced a different mechanic introduced earlier where you paid a certain amount for an Advantage that then made ST cheaper for your character to purchase.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by naloth

I can see how that will take some getting used to, but it's not a whole lot different than how you use BL when you're combining ST to do a coordinated ST feat. You can have a rule of thumb like when you gestalt powers together.

The easiest rule of thumb is to just convert to linear damage.

Originally Posted by Otaku

Not that I've been the most use this thread, but I will second a desire to rename IT:DR to something less confusing.

I prefer IT:DD (damage divisor), or just DD.