07-10-2013, 02:54 AM | #21 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon
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Re: Slings, realistic physics, The Deadly Spring
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My arm bones are exceptionally thick and don't allow full or hyper-extension. So I can never get good at holding bows pulled back.
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07-10-2013, 05:13 AM | #22 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Slings, realistic physics, The Deadly Spring
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But it makes more sense to class slings with bows and crossbows in performance than it does to class them with short-ranged thrown weapons. It doesn't mess too badly with anyone's suspension of disbelief to have thrown weapons massively outpenetrate longer ranged missile weapons, as that result was also expected in reality. Granted, GURPS overstates the difference at high ST levels, but I think I can live with that for the time being. .357 Magnum slings, however, are disconcerting.
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07-10-2013, 06:09 AM | #23 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Slings, realistic physics, The Deadly Spring
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Of course, there are other researchers achieving velocities of at least 50% and sometimes 60% higher than he is, even with the same sling and same ammunition. Those are not even master slingers, but simply young people in decent condition who train for several weeks. See Eric T. Skov, Experimentation in Sling Weaponry. Richardson himself admits that his ranges are below what most other tests yield and acknowledges that he might be using inferior technique. So I'd be inclined to believe that his results are not representative of the sling as a weapon of war, even if the sling he used may have been used in warfare. It is, of course, far safer and more comfortable for a novice to avoid full-power launches in favour of more leisurely throws. This also matches results that people from cultures that use the sling as a toy and shepherding tool achieve. If they are not specificallly instructed otherwise, they'll use a sling, ammunition and technique which are optimised for accuracy at short ranges and which do not reach very far. That's good for scaring wolves, killing small game and anything else these cultures would actually use the sling for. However, just like most warbows are not designed or used in the same way as toy bows or even bows for hunting small game, this does not tell us much about the use of war slings. I'd expect them to at least match the velocity achieved by Skov and probably exceed it. Indeed, the ranges confirmed by the small fraternity of enthusiastic slingers indicate that much higher velocities must be achievable with training. If you can launch a 40-50g stone more than 450m, an equally skilled user with a lead glans can achieve significantly more impressive velocities and ranges than Richardson. There's no way to come close to that range with an initial velocity around 30m/s, not unless you suspend gravity and air resistance. Unfortunately, no one among the very small fraternity of skilled slingers has as yet performed sufficiently exhaustive testing with slings designed to kill humans at long ranges, probably because that's not a competative sport. Some of the best slingers for achieving long casts are competing in an event where only stones may be used, for example. They'd need to get used to a new type of sling and a new shape of projectile to demonstrate the range and velocities achivable with replicas of the archeological lead glandes. Not to mention that lead glandes, unlike stones, are not easily visible in flight. As a result, we lack reliable velocity data for people who actually can sling with anything approaching the power to be useful on a battlefield. Extrapolating from the distance of world records, does, however, indicate that velocities up to 90m/s may be achievable. As with bows, the ST of the user is important more for how heavy a projectile can be launched to those speeds than for determining the velocity itself. With slings, however, that's not determined primarily by material properties and design principles (although these are important), they are skill dependant. That argues that untrained use of the Sling ought to suffer damage penalties and that Perks to improve performance, much like Strongbow, ought to be available. Aside from other considerations, it seems to me that 28g-40g glandes are probably more economical than effective, with heavier glandes being much more likely to wound and kill humans and larger animals. A 36g glans can be lethal, yes, but a more important consideration is that you can obtain more of them for the same amount of lead than you can make of more lethal 62g or 100-120g ones. The reason we find a lot of those small glandes is that in most historical warfare, something that did 1d(0.5) cr was a scary enough weapon and it was better to put more of those in the air than try for 1d+2 cr at the cost of spending x4 as much and having to carry x4 as heavy ammunition. Adventurers in GURPS may feel differently.
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Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela! Last edited by Icelander; 07-10-2013 at 06:49 AM. |
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07-10-2013, 06:47 AM | #24 |
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: Slings, realistic physics, The Deadly Spring
We do already have proposed options that do a bit about the sw/thr damage issue, remember. Not from a 'do the physics' perspective, but still, any mismatch will be smaller.
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07-10-2013, 11:40 AM | #25 |
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Seattle, WA
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Re: Slings, realistic physics, The Deadly Spring
Even for those of us who are fine with the standard GURPS damage tables for melee weapons, the sling at ST 14 generates 2d pi damage. Without a reasonable AD, such as the aforementioned (.5), I think that creates a bit of an issue with suspension of disbelief. Sure, ST 14 is very strong, but that damage is 7 points of penetration...that'll get through all chainmail ever made. I just don't see that happening. With the (.5) AD tacked on, this doesn't happen. I have less issue with the sling going through leather, though even that is probably unlikely.
But, at the end of the day, either these weapons were useful or they weren't. We know they were used. We also know armor was used. And more importantly, in play we know that PCs and enemies will wear armor (perhaps even ahistorical levels of armor), and there's frankly no good gameplay reason to nerf muscle powered weapons down to no effective damage. Edit: Here's a thought, maybe rather than a straight up (.5) AD, we apply the "edge protection" rule to sling bullets. Basically, if they can't penetrate, they can still do crushing damage, which I find much more believable.
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07-10-2013, 12:00 PM | #26 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Slings, realistic physics, The Deadly Spring
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Sling damage is not pi and cannot be modelled as pi. It's crushing damage and while it can be lethal to unarmoured people, for the most part, like arrows, even a solid hit will tend to wound and not kill a human.
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07-10-2013, 12:14 PM | #27 | |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Slings, realistic physics, The Deadly Spring
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07-10-2013, 12:36 PM | #28 | |
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Seattle, WA
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Re: Slings, realistic physics, The Deadly Spring
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07-10-2013, 02:19 PM | #29 | |
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Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon
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Re: Slings, realistic physics, The Deadly Spring
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07-10-2013, 03:00 PM | #30 | |
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Seattle, WA
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Re: Slings, realistic physics, The Deadly Spring
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If it's pi, ironically, the metal armor does better--DR 4 instead of 2.
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-apoc527 My Campaigns Currently Playing: GURPS Banestorm: The Symmetry of Darkness Inactive: Star*Drive: 2525-Hunting for Fun and Profit My THS Campaign-In the Shadows of Venus Yrth--The Legend Begins The XCOM Apocalypse |
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deadly spring, low-tech, pyramid 3/33, the deadly spring |
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