The 2 skulls in TA

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

You're dealing with two different books. Basic took the more direct and simple approach that on a random hit from behind, it wasn't possible to hit the face, or at least not probable enough to afford the chance on the random roll.

Low-tech takes the more refined approach that allows you to target the face from behind (ears, side of the jaw, etc...), but because of the awkward position and difficulty to target, it's at -7 instead of -5.

Er, I don't think the latter has anything to do with Low Tech. Isn't that fully covered in the Basic Set? You could always make a called shot to the face from behind. You couldn't hit it on a random hit location roll, is all.

Ah, on checking it looks like the swapping of -7 and -5 when striking from behind is from MA137.

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

Where is this text you talk about in helmets protecting area "5" from behind? I'm going to need a quote.

The text I'm talking about, and the only reference I can find that associates area "5" with a skull hit is on Basic, p.552, the hit location table, note [4]. Where it says to treat a random roll of 5 as a skull hit.

From Low Tech 111:
-On pot helms: "(areas 5, 17-18 get no protection – front or rear)."
-On the bascinet: "(all of areas 3-4, plus area 5 from the back but not the front)." It goes on to add that it has a 1 in 6 chance of protecting the face because of its ear coverage.

On LT112, there's some text that might conflate face with the front of area 5:
"Each addition provides the helmet’s DR over a
certain hit location and has a chance of protecting against
an attack to the front of area 5. Add up the listed odds and
roll 1d. If the result is equal to or less than the total, then
the helmet’s DR protects the face."

[Gudiomen]

The text on the bascinet is rather weird. The text on the pot-helm I had discarded because it was lumped together with the neck, but now I'm thinking it's lumped together for a reason...

Quite disturbing, specially since there's almost no comment about this in all of the books. I mean, how does a pot-helm protect from the back then? It protects the skull from the back, but only the area that equates to the -7, since the skull can be targeted at -5 from behind, that implies that the pot-helm would only protect part of the skull, like on a roll of 1-3 on 1d.

I'm still not convinced since there's an almost entire absence of treatment of this in any book before Low-Tech. If I'm wrong, please point me to such rules.

That aside, the discussion has become a ping-pong between you and me, and I'd like to see more people's views on this, I'd particularly like to get the authors and editor's opinions... if they don't pop in for a post, I'll drop them a private message.

Anyone else has an interpretation on this?

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

I'm still not convinced since there's an almost entire absence of treatment of this in any book before Low-Tech. If I'm wrong, please point me to such rules.

There's also no treatment of the abdomen before Low-Tech. Low-Tech explicitly adjusts hit locations.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

Anyone else has an interpretation on this?

It's pretty obvious (to me) that if something explicitly doesn't protect against attacks to the "5" from the rear than it doesn't. Since there are a lot of helmets that are like this, it makes a lot of sense (not that a pot helm with a rim provides some protection).

[Gudiomen]

Well, that's disturbing. Changes a lot of things.

To me it isn't as intuitive as you make it sound, but perhaps it's because I haven't had time to process it yet...

It doesn't sound obvious at all, to me area "5", aka the face didn't exist from the back. Just like it doesn't make sense for the groin to be accessible from the back on normal combative situations. The text on Low-Tech seems to be the first such interpretation (I'll review MA to check). Edit: just checked, MA talks specifically about the face, postulates that there's a 1 in 6 chance of hitting the brain with a sharp object or the nose with a blunt one, and says the face is targeted at -7 from the back. Also checked Low Tech, there's no mention of a back to area "5" except in the helmets section, LT only creates 2 new hit locations, the chest and abdomen as separate areas.

It's further complicated by the fact that the description for the effects of injury to the face and the skull are pretty different. It's also weird, because from the back there is only skull and neck, there's no backside of the face, anatomically speaking.

Also, the face has a smaller area (10% vs 20% skull), but if the skull is only the top of the skull, and the face, instead, is a cylinder that wraps around the entire head, except the top... then area "5" should have a larger armor area than area "3-4", aka skull.

Basic seems to be clear that you from behind, a random hit that would hit the face, if coming from behind, hits the skull instead (meaning it DOESN'T hit the face, it hits the skull, aka area 3-4).

So riddle me this:

I hit someone on the back of the head, targeting the face, at -7. The target is wearing a basic pot-helm. Which of these will be true?

#1 - Skull DR 2, applies, but the helm's does not.
#2 - neither skull DR nor helm DR apply
#3 - if they target has a nasal, there's a chance that the helm will protect.
#4 - injury is calculated using skull mechanics
#5 - injury is calculated using face mechanics

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

It doesn't sound obvious at all, to me area "5", aka the face didn't exist from the back. Just like it doesn't make sense for the groin to be accessible from the back on normal combative situations. The text on Low-Tech seems to be the first such interpretation (I'll review MA to check). Edit: just checked, MA talks specifically about the face, postulates that there's a 1 in 6 chance of hitting the brain with a sharp object or the nose with a blunt one, and says the face is targeted at -7 from the back. Also checked Low Tech, there's no mention of a back to area "5" except in the helmets section, LT only creates 2 new hit locations, the chest and abdomen as separate areas.

I'll address the area 5 question later, but for MA on the face, you hit the skull through the face on a 1/6 with a penetrating attack, not a sharp one. Piercing, Impaling, or Tight-beam Burning. Which makes sense, because from a number of angles, if you enter through the face and don't stop you'll hit brain.

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

Also, the face has a smaller area (10% vs 20% skull), but if the skull is only the top of the skull, and the face, instead, is a cylinder that wraps around the entire head, except the top... then area "5" should have a larger armor area than area "3-4", aka skull.

According to BS399, the skull includes the entire head above the eyes. That's a lot. In the illustration, it's nearly as tall as the face. And then then there's the top.

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

Basic seems to be clear that you from behind, a random hit that would hit the face, if coming from behind, hits the skull instead (meaning it DOESN'T hit the face, it hits the skull, aka area 3-4).

I think this is a confusion on your part. Skull is not synonymous to 'area 3-4' in general. Most GURPS books don't regard the hit location table rolls as the basis of body locations. Low Tech has a somewhat eccentric relation to them.

Random hits from behind hit the the skull instead doesn't mean that it hits 3-4 rather than 5, it means that the back of 5 is skull, while the front is face.

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

I hit someone on the back of the head, targeting the face, at -7. The target is wearing a basic pot-helm. Which of these will be true?

#1 - Skull DR 2, applies, but the helm's does not.
#2 - neither skull DR nor helm DR apply
#3 - if they target has a nasal, there's a chance that the helm will protect.
#4 - injury is calculated using skull mechanics
#5 - injury is calculated using face mechanics

I would say that trivially 5. When you make a called shot to the face at -7, by definition you are making a shot to the face. You're not defined as making a shot to area 5, so there's no grounds for confusion there.

Probably also 3. It's a little confused, but my impression of LT 112 is that it uses 'face' and 'front of area 5' as equivalent. And in any case the actual text on the nasal says 1/6 chance of protecting the face.

[Gudiomen]

This seems awfully confusing, up until LT there were no numbered areas, the skull was the skull, the face was the face. Now we have a location that is called the face, but is actually the skull from the back? Only if I wear something in the hit location called the skull (3-4) by low tech, it doesn't protect the entire skull...

Even in Low-Tech, there's no separate treatment for the "back of area 5" whatever the hell it's called or relates to in real life... except on the helmets entry for pot-helm and bascinet.

Can Sean, Dan or Peter help me out unraveling this?