[IW] High-Tech/Ultra-Tech firearms for a Yrth's warrior

[Carlos]

I chose Guns (Shotgun) as the main firearm skill because I thought shotguns rocks... But then later, when I start reading a bit more , I came to realize that this class of weapon kind of sucks (in therms of firepower), despite the fact that the Daewoo USAS-12, 12 G 2.75' (HT 104) with APDS ammo (HT 103) doesn't look that bad: 6d(2) damage, RoF 6, Acc 4 and Rcl 1/3.

Maybe I'm missing something, since I'm used with low TL games (like DF). That's why I'm asking some hints and advices here.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

You can just _buy_ a regualr Dragonfang on the black market on Merlin-1. You could even get an enchnated version. The whole process would probably be more fun than humans should be allowed to have. :) Oh well, not everything on Merlin-1 is meant for humans.

Ok. My character is a SM+0 human (not quite human, since he's a Super-Soldier, but it doesn't matter). Can he use the Dragonfang one-handed? The link says that the weapon lacks a stock and is intended to be fired one-handed, and its minimum ST is 20, but I'm stucked with the "large supers or mecha" part. Can it be modified to add ETC technology? The ammo can be modified to cause pi++?

And speaking about enchantment weapons, a balanced monowire greatsword can be enchanted with Accuracy, Puissance and Deflect, right?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Carlos

Ok. My character is a SM+0 human (not quite human, since he's a Super-Soldier, but it doesn't matter). Can he use the Dragonfang one-handed? The link says that the weapon lacks a stock and is intended to be fired one-handed, and its minimum ST is 20, but I'm stucked with the "large supers or mecha" part. Can it be modified to add ETC technology? The ammo can be modified to cause pi++?

And speaking about enchantment weapons, a balanced monowire greatsword can be enchanted with Accuracy, Puissance and Deflect, right?

Ok, in 4e it's all about the Min ST and any diacritical marks that acompany it. Weapons are not rated for size classes or asimilar the way they are in D&D 3.x. look at the rifles and shotguns in Basic. All have the "single dagger" mark after ST. That means that the ST figure is for 2-handed use.

There is no dagger after the ST in the stat block. The ST figure is for one-handed use and "large Supers and mecha" has no specific rules meaning.

I'd think ETC needed to be installed from the start. At the very least it would require a new reciever as well as the electrical parts and that's more than halfway to a new gun.

This also takes someone who has TL9 technology which Infinity has only on a protoype basis. It's a major engineering project to build any new caliber from scratch and no one would set up a real production line for the ammo for jsut one guy. That's why I've said you'd be better off _finding_ it somewhere out there.

Increasing the Dragonfang from .50 to .60 so it would do P++ is basically building _another_ new gun from scratch with its' own proprietary ammo. There are rules in High Tech about changing calibers but that assumes available ammo. No use making a gun that no one makes ammo for.

If I were your GM I'd tell you that you could not get a Dragonfang at all unless you west to Merlin-1 and acquired it somehow there. Remember to get a big box of ammo at the same time. Merlin-1 is _not_ on Infinity's standard trade list either. It's classed Z2 and that's only one notch short of max.

As to the sword, look at the Item listings at the bottom of the spell decriptions in Magic. If they say "weapon" you can Enchant that spell onto a weapon.

[ronom]

Some of the latest slugs for shotguns might be OK, also in the 80's a saboted AP was devloped for disabling autos. The movie "Alien Nation had them in use by the bad guys, but there was a real world version.

[Carlos]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Ok, in 4e it's all about the Min ST and any diacritical marks that acompany it. Weapons are not rated for size classes or asimilar the way they are in D&D 3.x. look at the rifles and shotguns in Basic. All have the "single dagger" mark after ST. That means that the ST figure is for 2-handed use.

There is no dagger after the ST in the stat block. The ST figure is for one-handed use and "large Supers and mecha" has no specific rules meaning.

Well, the link itself doesn't say nothing. But GURPS has weapons designed for SM+1 or more, the oversized weapons. I just don't have sure if that's the case here because despite the description above, it doesn't says nothing about SM.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Increasing the Dragonfang from .50 to .60 so it would do P++ is basically building _another_ new gun from scratch with its' own proprietary ammo. There are rules in High Tech about changing calibers but that assumes available ammo. No use making a gun that no one makes ammo for.

If I were your GM I'd tell you that you could not get a Dragonfang at all unless you west to Merlin-1 and acquired it somehow there. Remember to get a big box of ammo at the same time. Merlin-1 is _not_ on Infinity's standard trade list either. It's classed Z2 and that's only one notch short of max.

Couldn't the Dragonfang's standard ammo be exchanged for a similar (or even modified, using HT rules) version?

[Kale]

Originally Posted by Carlos

I chose Guns (Shotgun) as the main firearm skill because I thought shotguns rocks... But then later, when I start reading a bit more , I came to realize that this class of weapon kind of sucks (in therms of firepower), despite the fact that the Daewoo USAS-12, 12 G 2.75' (HT 104) with APDS ammo (HT 103) doesn't look that bad: 6d(2) damage, RoF 6, Acc 4 and Rcl 1/3.
Maybe I'm missing something, since I'm used with low TL games (like DF). That's why I'm asking some hints and advices here.

The key advantage of shotguns is flexibility. For sheer laying-down-of-hurt you can't beat an assault or battle rifle or better yet a light MG. Shotguns are for when you face down a vampire and can only hurt him with wooden stakes; load up the appropriate wooden slug and that vampire is in for a nasty surprise. Silver shot is also very hard on Werewolves. Dragon's breath flame rounds work well on swarms that a machine gun would barely scratch. Basically, different loads let you do different damage types easily with a shotgun. Against enemies that are resistant to piercing damage (pi) you can try bolo rounds (cutting), explosive rounds (exp cr), dragon's breath (inc), beanbag (cr knockback), and various chemical warheads. It's hard to have that kind of variety in smaller-payload bullets, even .50 can't hold as much stuff as a 12-gauge slug. It's also easy to switch ammo types with a shotgun. Just slide whatever round you need into the loading gate and away you go, no mag change required. Guns like the Neostead even have double-tube magazines that allow you to carry two ammo types ready to go.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Carlos

Well, the link itself doesn't say nothing. But GURPS has weapons designed for SM+1 or more, the oversized weapons. I just don't have sure if that's the case here because despite the description above, it doesn't says nothing about SM.



Couldn't the Dragonfang's standard ammo be exchanged for a similar (or even modified, using HT rules) version?

Fer cryin' out loud! Take "yes" for an answer! Gurps does not class weapons by SM. This si the way the ru;les work. If you won't listen to the answrs you get why do you ask the questions?

Sorry if I seem irate but I've answered these questions multiple times and you just keep coming back with the same questions again.

Also for the last time, neither ETC nor a caliber chnge is an _ammo_ option. They are _gun_ options. You have to (at a minimum) make major alterations to the gun itself (sometimes requiring the High TL Ad too).

Even Infinity is not going to have a 0.60 ETC Dragonfang on its' shelves waiting to issue your character. _Maybe_ you can go _somewhere_ and in exchange for a lot of money have one made for your character. You can't just go to your Infintiy armorer adn ask him to do these things.

Unless maybe he was an ISWAT PC who had the requisite abilities. This only underscores that you need an exotic source for an exotic weapon.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Also for the last time, neither ETC nor a caliber chnge is an _ammo_ option. They are _gun_ options. You have to (at a minimum) make major alterations to the gun itself (sometimes requiring the High TL Ad too).

Even Infinity is not going to have a 0.60 ETC Dragonfang on its' shelves waiting to issue your character. _Maybe_ you can go _somewhere_ and in exchange for a lot of money have one made for your character. You can't just go to your Infintiy armorer adn ask him to do these things.

Unless maybe he was an ISWAT PC who had the requisite abilities. This only underscores that you need an exotic source for an exotic weapon.

One vehement agreement, one minor option if the GM says "OK." Carlos, if you're the GM, then, well, you can say "OK."

ETC is going to require a ground-up build. It adds electrical energy to an expanding powder burn, and that's a fundamental bit of design. Fred's exactly right here.

For a CALIBER change, well . . . there might be options, but that will greatly depend on design.

I can make a Glock 17 (9mm) into a Glock 22 (.40) by basically changing the barrel and magazine, possibly the spring. Granted, that's three of the five pieces of the gun (the other two being frame and slide).

I can make an AR-15 in .223 into a 6.8x43mm SPC by changing out the barrel and chamber, magazine. MAYBE the bolt group, too . . . not sure.

You MIGHT be able to make such a switch in an ETC gun, IF the barrel is designed that way, or the design is such that the device the adds energy to the powder after it detonates isn't built into the barrel. I'd not count on it, though.

The big issue would be that a .60 from a .40 is 225% more chamber volume IF the cases are the same size. That's going to be a lot more powder, or a LOT fewer shots out of your battery to make up for the energy not coming from more powder so you don't blow the gun to smithereens.

[Carlos]

Originally Posted by Kale

The key advantage of shotguns is flexibility. For sheer laying-down-of-hurt you can't beat an assault or battle rifle or better yet a light MG. Shotguns are for when you face down a vampire and can only hurt him with wooden stakes; load up the appropriate wooden slug and that vampire is in for a nasty surprise. Silver shot is also very hard on Werewolves. Dragon's breath flame rounds work well on swarms that a machine gun would barely scratch. Basically, different loads let you do different damage types easily with a shotgun. Against enemies that are resistant to piercing damage (pi) you can try bolo rounds (cutting), explosive rounds (exp cr), dragon's breath (inc), beanbag (cr knockback), and various chemical warheads. It's hard to have that kind of variety in smaller-payload bullets, even .50 can't hold as much stuff as a 12-gauge slug. It's also easy to switch ammo types with a shotgun. Just slide whatever round you need into the loading gate and away you go, no mag change required. Guns like the Neostead even have double-tube magazines that allow you to carry two ammo types ready to go.

I see... So the whole point of using and to become a master shotgunner is to use different kinds of ammo for different situations. For sheer power, the DragonFang seems to be a better option. What do you think?

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Fer cryin' out loud! Take "yes" for an answer! Gurps does not class weapons by SM. This si the way the ru;les work. If you won't listen to the answrs you get why do you ask the questions?

Sorry if I seem irate but I've answered these questions multiple times and you just keep coming back with the same questions again.

I'm sorry. As I said before, I'm a dungeon fantasy player/enthusiastic. I'm not sure if that's a general rule in GURPS, but in DF settings there're rules for oversized weapons were SM comes to play! Then when I saw that "large supers and mechas", I started to wonder about the necessary SM to use that gun.

However, DragonFang is less bulky (-4 bulk) than my actual gun, the USAS-12 (-5 bulk)...

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Also for the last time, neither ETC nor a caliber chnge is an _ammo_ option. They are _gun_ options. You have to (at a minimum) make major alterations to the gun itself (sometimes requiring the High TL Ad too).

Ok, I got it. But now I'm asking for ammo options. High-Tech has such options and I'm looking out for some hot ideas to increase fire power. And I'm open to suggestions.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Even Infinity is not going to have a 0.60 ETC Dragonfang on its' shelves waiting to issue your character. _Maybe_ you can go _somewhere_ and in exchange for a lot of money have one made for your character. You can't just go to your Infintiy armorer adn ask him to do these things.

I don't know if Merlin-1 would have ETC technology. I think such change might require a master gunsmith with TL 9+.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Unless maybe he was an ISWAT PC who had the requisite abilities. This only underscores that you need an exotic source for an exotic weapon.

Yes, and an exotic and POWERFUL weapon is all I need to fit this Super-Soldier sword master (increased his ST from 21 to 22 in the previous game, for effective ST 24).

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

For a CALIBER change, well . . . there might be options, but that will greatly depend on design.

I can make a Glock 17 (9mm) into a Glock 22 (.40) by basically changing the barrel and magazine, possibly the spring. Granted, that's three of the five pieces of the gun (the other two being frame and slide).

I can make an AR-15 in .223 into a 6.8x43mm SPC by changing out the barrel and chamber, magazine. MAYBE the bolt group, too . . . not sure.

You MIGHT be able to make such a switch in an ETC gun, IF the barrel is designed that way, or the design is such that the device the adds energy to the powder after it detonates isn't built into the barrel. I'd not count on it, though.

The big issue would be that a .60 from a .40 is 225% more chamber volume IF the cases are the same size. That's going to be a lot more powder, or a LOT fewer shots out of your battery to make up for the energy not coming from more powder so you don't blow the gun to smithereens.

But the DragonFang is .50-caliber, not .40. In any case, perhaps such changes aren't recommendable. I just want a gun with the most powerful firepower avaliable to TL 8-9 and with bulk enough to conceal it in a overcoat. The DragonFang seems (at least till this moment) the winner. Any suggestion?

And just to make it clear, I want to choose one gun to make it a "signature gun" for my character, so I can give him a limited version of Gunslinger.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Carlos

But the DragonFang is .50-caliber, not .40.

the point is case volume, which is (0.6/0.5)^2 = 44* higher even if the .60 case isn't longer.

Anyway, the overall point is that you MIGHT be able to make a barrel swap and get your .60 caliber, though damage would depend on energy, and smaller calibers at higher energies are "better" in GURPS until they cross wounding thresholds.

Fred's probably correct about ETC and ETK guns, though: once they is built, they is built, and not much more you can do about them. So a DragonFang built with the ETC option (firing .40 sabot ammo!) will be your most bad-ass combo.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Carlos

I'm sorry. As I said before, I'm a dungeon fantasy player/enthusiastic. I'm not sure if that's a general rule in GURPS, but in DF settings there're rules for oversized weapons were SM comes to play!

If you're talking about the little paragraph of "Weapons for Giants" even that doesn't work (at least by the rules as I understand them) the way you';re worried about.

You multiply the St by 1.5 but it just becomes 15 instead of 10 (or whatever) it doesn't become "ST 15 _and_ SM +1".

At any rate, all DF rules are optional for straight Gurps and the Dragonfang stat block (written by the authors of HT) says "20" and not "20 with a dagger". That means one hand.

Also, the Merlin-1 golems that might also use it _are_ SM+0.