Spells written down are how many pages?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Describing the gestures, intonation, and mental states to cast a GURPS Magic spell might add length to the description. Or they might be left implicit because a typical spellbook is an aide memoire not a beginner's textbook.

For comparison, medieval cookbooks are notorious for not giving exact amounts, times, temperatures (kind of hard to do back then, of course!), or procedures; they assumed that the cook had been trained by what amounted to apprenticeship and just needed to have their memory stimulated. And medieval scholars classified magic as one of the applied arts, not as one of the theoretical or liberal arts.

Bill Stoddard

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Wouldn't either imply that there is more than a single page per spell?

No. An adequate discription of how to juggle can be written on a single page with space left over. The hours you spend on learning how to juggle aren't spent reading about how to juggle.

[malloyd]

Note that a lot of spell descriptions may use technical vocabulary or outreferences to procedures that aren't written in the description, often because it's used for a lot of spells. You still need to learn to do this stuff to cast the spell, but the directions don't need to tell you *how*. Consider a modern technological procedure that begins with Step 1: Calibrate the diffractometer.

A spell might well begin Step 1: Set your third eye chakra in a state of outwelling. Step 2: Take a pinch of green pixie dust mixture (prepared using the Clayton-Jones process and not the al-Azim method) in your left hand. Step 3: While whistling the first bar of Greensleeves, move your right big toe in the Fourth Pattern of Command....

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

No. An adequate discription of how to juggle can be written on a single page with space left over. The hours you spend on learning how to juggle aren't spent reading about how to juggle.

In that case then why spellbooks at all? You don't need a book to learn to juggle. What I'm having problems with is the notion that a character needs to study a single short description for 400 hours before learning the spell. All this other stuff that's been mentioned (theory, gestures, and so on) could also be in the book, if the character is learning the spell (which unlike juggling has no default).

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

Look for the file 0615.6.html in your 2007 archive.

Thanks TBC, I've got that out and about and playing with some numbers.

I guess I'm leaning towards about 2,500 words per spell; of course this isn't just text, its also diagram's of proper 'gestures', the best 'magically' charged ingredients to use, the typical methods of enchantment, and so on. So that equates to about (using Bruno's method of around 250/page) ~10 pages/spell (doubled for VH). Seems reasonable enough to me, any other suggestions comments from folks?

Also, thanks everyone for your posts, as usual the Fora Hivemind is a kind and benevolent conglomerate ^_^

Ghostdancer

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

In that case then why spellbooks at all? You don't need a book to learn to juggle. What I'm having problems with is the notion that a character needs to study a single short description for 400 hours before learning the spell. All this other stuff that's been mentioned (theory, gestures, and so on) could also be in the book, if the character is learning the spell (which unlike juggling has no default).

Spell-like system doesn't have to mean you learn spells like skills with hundreds of hours of study, though you do that if you want, they're more along the lines of leveled Perks or mini-powers.

Things like studying a single spell for magic or single skill for psionics don't really relate to studying Biochemistry.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Spell-like system doesn't have to mean you learn spells like skills with hundreds of hours of study, though you do that if you want, they're more along the lines of leveled Perks or mini-powers.

Do you have a page reference for this? AFAICT the normal study rules still apply (and in fact are the only way to learn new spells, since they lack defaults).

[Polydamas]

Renaissance fencing manuals would be another parallel. They were designed for competent fighters to refresh their memories on what they had been taught, or to learn from independently. They typically leave out basic mechanics and tactical theory.

With a very good Writing and Teaching roll, you can cram half a dozen physical skills and several dozen techniques into 40 to 60 manuscript pages written for trained students; with competent rolls you can get half that density. Manciolino got about 8 skills in 130 printed pages (about 65 8 x 12” pages); Fiore fit about 7 skills in 36 or 47 manuscript leaves (each about the size of a 8 x12” page); the compilation associated with Sigmund Ringeck about 7 skills in 127 manuscript leaves (each about half a 8x12” page). That's an average of 7-9 GURPS standard pages per skill.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

In that case then why spellbooks at all? You don't need a book to learn to juggle. What I'm having problems with is the notion that a character needs to study a single short description for 400 hours before learning the spell. All this other stuff that's been mentioned (theory, gestures, and so on) could also be in the book, if the character is learning the spell (which unlike juggling has no default).

Really short spellbooks would probably work like equipment, granting +1 or so to skill when you have your books handy and time to read them. They would make it possible to learn without a teacher, but much of the time to learn would probably be experimenting to figure out all the unwritten things and practicing. Personally, I envision spellbooks a bit more verbose than Bill does, but I can understand where he is coming from.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Really short spellbooks would probably work like equipment, granting +1 or so to skill when you have your books handy and time to read them. They would make it possible to learn without a teacher, but much of the time to learn would probably be experimenting to figure out all the unwritten things and practicing. Personally, I envision spellbooks a bit more verbose than Bill does, but I can understand where he is coming from.

Again Thaumtalogly and DF: Sages Cover this 8)

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

In that case then why spellbooks at all? You don't need a book to learn to juggle. What I'm having problems with is the notion that a character needs to study a single short description for 400 hours before learning the spell. All this other stuff that's been mentioned (theory, gestures, and so on) could also be in the book, if the character is learning the spell (which unlike juggling has no default).

That spells have no default is the reason why spellbooks. The character needs something to start with. Magic is more of an intellectual process than juggling of course, but at the same as I see it, mastering it isn't just a matter of knowing it. It's the development of a mental "muscle" and developing it involves a great deal of staring at goats. Rote recitation of the words will not do anything even if you have a perfect memory and magic aptitude.