Gestrues and Incantations - Page 3

Steve Plambeck · 07-17-2020, 01:06 AM

I dunno -- my feel on this is HTH combat might be the worst time to have all that mental clarity and concentration. But a memorized phrase or flick of the hand you've repeated many times before might be an automatic reaction. Muscle memory often saves the day when you're doing something while distracted. Muscle memory calls for a roll against DX, not IQ -- if you have to think about it, it's too late.

Academic of course, unless you're house ruling casting spells is now an option in HTH combat.

I've been intrigued with another idea though lately that would apply to this discussion. What if a wizard could pick one of their spells, the one they know best and have practiced the most, and designate it as their "automatic spell"?

By this I'm suggesting a spell they could cast instantly, by will alone, without making any roll. (Certain things like missile spells would have to be off limits for this.) This one spell could be activated without waiting for the turn to act, and it would not use up the wizard's turn to act during the combat turn (thus creating the single case where a wizard might cast two spells in one turn). Cost though would remain normal.

And, re this topic, it could even be activated in the midst of HTH.

I came up with this to add as a perk to go along with an advanced wizardry talent.

hcobb · 07-17-2020, 08:37 AM

C.f. Wizard rulebook page 23 for spellcasting at -4 in HTH

Steve Plambeck · 07-18-2020, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb

C.f. Wizard rulebook page 23 for spellcasting at -4 in HTH

Thanks! I stand corrected. Now I see the same paragraph even occurs in original Wizard, page 20. Yet I can't recall it ever coming up when I played.

Nils_Lindeberg · 07-27-2020, 03:50 PM

If anything for general game balance we should come up with ways for wizards to use ST more frequently. At the core of TFT is the balance of the three stats and the multitude of possible characters that you can make by shifting them around.

In reality it often comes down to a few cookie cutter builds based on a few key talents, key spells or key weapons and the rest of the 32 point character follows from that. One example would be the classic 12/11/9 crossbow man with Missile weapons III that can shoot once every turn. There are not much wriggle room with this build. More ST is useless unless you can get it to 15, and even then it is not optimal. Maybe ST 13 for a melee weapon that will be used very little. DX could be raised by a couple of points in order to get some armor, but then again the cost of changing another attribute to compensate is just way to great. Any kind of minor change will make the character terrible compared to the cookie cutter build. There are a few talent points that can be moved around, so we have some variety, but not much.

But it is also a good example of all three attributes playing their part. When it comes to wizards it is very improbable that you will see a wizard with 14/8/10 attributes or some such combination. I am not requesting that we change the rules to make that build a top tier build for the wizardly arena, but it would be nice if it at least was interesting and playable in some context.

Maybe as some sort of wizard tank with Blur and toughness. Or as a weapon swinging gish. Or a magic missile shooting energizer bunny that could shoot all day. But as it stands, it is just bad. And with the invention of the mana staff, ST is not really needed at all. So maybe we should base the mana in the staff on caster ST instead of IQ. That would be one step in the right direction. And maybe base the magical damage of the staff on ST like a glorified Club. Missile spells dice maximum could be based on ST, so you could chose between 5d-10 magic missile with a high ST build or 2d Lightnings with a high IQ build or maybe 3d Fireball build with some DX so you can actually hit reliably. They would all average at about 7 damage.

I want all attributes to matter for all builds. For variety's sake if nothing else.

Steve Plambeck · 07-28-2020, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

If anything for general game balance we should come up with ways for wizards to use ST more frequently. At the core of TFT is the balance of the three stats and the multitude of possible characters that you can make by shifting them around.

In reality it often comes down to a few cookie cutter builds based on a few key talents, key spells or key weapons and the rest of the 32 point character follows from that...

Touching on this I wrote a little piece earlier in the year here, about how there are only 22 possible builds for starting characters given a starting DX between 10 and 13. Whereas, if there were 4 Attributes instead of 3, again each with a minimum of 8 and 8 free points just as in the original system, the number of possible builds using the same range for DX jumps to a whopping 74.

Now let that 4th Attribute be a personal Mana stat for wizards themselves, paying for spell costs without compromising their ST-based "hit points", and wizards can use spells more frequently.

So that fixes both of those two concerns, more frequent spells and many more builds for starting characters. But, we wouldn't really call that TFT anymore. TFT is married to the 3 Attribute balance. What I'm talking about would be a different game, one I've actually puttered around designing for longer than I care to mention :)

hcobb · 07-28-2020, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

about how there are only 22 possible builds for starting characters given a starting DX between 10 and 13.

And now I've got at least 30 very different builds that are all ST 6, DX 9, IQ 17.

Steve Plambeck · 07-28-2020, 03:46 PM

I probably used the term "build" too narrowly. I was just referring to permutations of 32 Attribute points. Once talents, spells and configurations of arms are taken into account, the combinations are much larger.

JimmyPlenty · 07-29-2020, 06:55 AM

Thinking of real life when you talk of building "essential" builds. People in general don't go through life optimally. If someone does go through a one track mindset and is that dedicated, yes they will all come across as cookie cutter.

Use sports as an example. Most basketball players are tall, Most wrestlers have that "wrestlers build" and so on. They vary, but not to the degree that one would notice in TFT. We would need a more granular system for that.

Have you noticed thieves on television? They always can do it all. Sneak, steal, slight of hand, fast talk...they are the thief...that's their "schtick". The only time to divert away from it is when there are a pack of thieves...like in Oceans 11.

Overall, don't be afraid of the template. It's the story that should really set them apart.

07-17-2020, 01:06 AM	#21
Steve Plambeck Join Date: Jun 2019	Re: Gestrues and Incantations I dunno -- my feel on this is HTH combat might be the worst time to have all that mental clarity and concentration. But a memorized phrase or flick of the hand you've repeated many times before might be an automatic reaction. Muscle memory often saves the day when you're doing something while distracted. Muscle memory calls for a roll against DX, not IQ -- if you have to think about it, it's too late. Academic of course, unless you're house ruling casting spells is now an option in HTH combat. I've been intrigued with another idea though lately that would apply to this discussion. What if a wizard could pick one of their spells, the one they know best and have practiced the most, and designate it as their "automatic spell"? By this I'm suggesting a spell they could cast instantly, by will alone, without making any roll. (Certain things like missile spells would have to be off limits for this.) This one spell could be activated without waiting for the turn to act, and it would not use up the wizard's turn to act during the combat turn (thus creating the single case where a wizard might cast two spells in one turn). Cost though would remain normal. And, re this topic, it could even be activated in the midst of HTH. I came up with this to add as a perk to go along with an advanced wizardry talent. __________________ "I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I'm right."

07-17-2020, 08:37 AM	#22
hcobb Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Pacheco, California	Re: Gestrues and Incantations C.f. Wizard rulebook page 23 for spellcasting at -4 in HTH __________________ -HJC

07-27-2020, 03:50 PM	#24
Nils_Lindeberg Join Date: Jul 2018	Re: Gestrues and Incantations If anything for general game balance we should come up with ways for wizards to use ST more frequently. At the core of TFT is the balance of the three stats and the multitude of possible characters that you can make by shifting them around. In reality it often comes down to a few cookie cutter builds based on a few key talents, key spells or key weapons and the rest of the 32 point character follows from that. One example would be the classic 12/11/9 crossbow man with Missile weapons III that can shoot once every turn. There are not much wriggle room with this build. More ST is useless unless you can get it to 15, and even then it is not optimal. Maybe ST 13 for a melee weapon that will be used very little. DX could be raised by a couple of points in order to get some armor, but then again the cost of changing another attribute to compensate is just way to great. Any kind of minor change will make the character terrible compared to the cookie cutter build. There are a few talent points that can be moved around, so we have some variety, but not much. But it is also a good example of all three attributes playing their part. When it comes to wizards it is very improbable that you will see a wizard with 14/8/10 attributes or some such combination. I am not requesting that we change the rules to make that build a top tier build for the wizardly arena, but it would be nice if it at least was interesting and playable in some context. Maybe as some sort of wizard tank with Blur and toughness. Or as a weapon swinging gish. Or a magic missile shooting energizer bunny that could shoot all day. But as it stands, it is just bad. And with the invention of the mana staff, ST is not really needed at all. So maybe we should base the mana in the staff on caster ST instead of IQ. That would be one step in the right direction. And maybe base the magical damage of the staff on ST like a glorified Club. Missile spells dice maximum could be based on ST, so you could chose between 5d-10 magic missile with a high ST build or 2d Lightnings with a high IQ build or maybe 3d Fireball build with some DX so you can actually hit reliably. They would all average at about 7 damage. I want all attributes to matter for all builds. For variety's sake if nothing else.

07-28-2020, 03:46 PM	#27
Steve Plambeck Join Date: Jun 2019	Re: Gestrues and Incantations I probably used the term "build" too narrowly. I was just referring to permutations of 32 Attribute points. Once talents, spells and configurations of arms are taken into account, the combinations are much larger. __________________ "I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I'm right."

07-29-2020, 06:55 AM	#28
JimmyPlenty Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: Gestrues and Incantations Thinking of real life when you talk of building "essential" builds. People in general don't go through life optimally. If someone does go through a one track mindset and is that dedicated, yes they will all come across as cookie cutter. Use sports as an example. Most basketball players are tall, Most wrestlers have that "wrestlers build" and so on. They vary, but not to the degree that one would notice in TFT. We would need a more granular system for that. Have you noticed thieves on television? They always can do it all. Sneak, steal, slight of hand, fast talk...they are the thief...that's their "schtick". The only time to divert away from it is when there are a pack of thieves...like in Oceans 11. Overall, don't be afraid of the template. It's the story that should really set them apart.