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Old 08-18-2018, 08:28 PM   #1
flankspeed
 
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Default Fatigue Point Use for Wizards AND Warriors

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NOTE: These rules have been consolidated from multiple posts, slightly revised, and re-posted under a new heading to make them easier to use. Please see the following:

Using ST-Based Hit Points & Fatigue Points Instead of Fatigue-ST

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=159605



FATIGUE POINTS

More flavor and more tactical options can be added to the game through a slightly different take on Fatigue Strength. This can be accomplished without adding a fourth stat such as Health in GURPS. Every character, wizard and warrior alike, would find some use for Fatigue.

In a sense, Strength generates a secondary stat of equal value called Hit Points because even though ST equals the Hits a character can take, accumulated damage is never said to reduce ST for wielding weapons. Strength could also generate another secondary stat of equal value called Fatigue Points. Thus a character with ST=12 would have HP=12 and FP=12.

This would give all players a way to track Fatigue loss without having it affect Hit Points. Wizards would be able to mark off Fatigue Points from spell casting without the loss putting them closer to death. This would not give them more Fatigue Strength than they had under the original rules, but it would allow them to use their Fatigue more freely.


EFFECTS OF FATIGUE POINT LOSS

The GM may allow the use of Fatigue Points during game play, ruling that every combat of a certain length, perhaps 6 consecutive turns or longer, costs 1 Fatigue Point. When Fatigue Points fall to 2 or less, the character is extremely tired and suffers -2 to any roll against an attribute, whether attacking, casting a spell, or making a saving throw. This would be cumulative with the -3 for Hit Points falling to 3 or less if the character is also seriously injured.

When Fatigue Points fall to 0, the character collapses from exhaustion, falling prone in the current hex. Make a 3d6 vs ST save to remain conscious. Failure means the character will pass out and enter forced rest until they regain 1 Fatigue Point, at which time they become conscious again and are at -2 to attribute rolls until Fatigue recovers to 3 or higher.

A Critical Failure roll of 17 means the character passes out and is dying from exhaustion unless someone renders medical aid (3d6 vs IQ for Physicker or Master Physicker) within 5 minutes, which expires before the character is able to recover 1 Fatigue naturally from 15 minutes of rest. A Critical Failure roll of 18 means the character dies immediately from exhaustion.

Success on the 3d6 save means the character stays conscious, but is forced to remain prone for that turn. On subsequent turns, the character may sit up or kneel or crawl, but is unable to stand and move on foot unless another 3d6 vs ST save succeeds (or Fatigue recovers to 1 or higher), permitting the character to stand up again. After standing with Fatigue Points at 0, the character suffers -2 to Movement Allowance until Fatigue recovers to 1 or higher and remains at -2 to attribute rolls until Fatigue recovers to 3 or higher.

A character at 0 Fatigue Points who losses any further Fatigue begins to suffer Hit Point damage instead. The Fatigue loss is equivalent to Hits of lethal damage. This is how a character in extreme situations can gradually die from exhaustion. If the GM is permitting use of Fatigue Points for heroic extra effort or allowing wizards to cast using Hit Points after Fatigue Points are depleted, then any loss or use of Fatigue after Fatigue Points are at 0 inflicts Hit Point loss instead.


CASTING SPELLS WITH FATIGUE POINTS & HIT POINTS

The GM may rule that when wizards have exhausted all Fatigue Points, they can continue spell casting using Hit Points, sacrificing pure life force and risking death. They may do this in one turn by casting a spell that takes Fatigue Points to 0 while also consuming enough Hit Points to finish powering the spell. The GM may limit the amount of points that can be spent at once so this system is not abused, such as limiting Missile spells to 5 ST points or something similar.

Once the wizard casts the spell and both Fatigue Points and Hit Points have been marked off, the wizard would then collapse as described above when a character’s Fatigue is reduced to 0. If Hit Points are reduced to 1, then the wizard falls unconscious, and if Hit Points are reduced to 0, then the wizard has died from the shock.


HEROIC EFFORT USING FATIGUE POINTS

Characters could expend a Fatigue Point to put forth an extraordinarily heroic effort for one turn, gaining +1 to a specific hit roll, damage roll, or saving throw. Also, characters could expend a Fatigue Point to add +2 to Movement Allowance for one turn.

Characters who are armed with a melee weapon (or a missile weapon, but GM may rule it risks breaking), are using a shield or main-gauche, or who are unarmed but know Unarmed Combat, Brawling, or Acrobatics could expend a Fatigue Point to put forth extraordinary defensive effort for one turn, gaining an extra -1 Hit of damage stopped from a specific incoming damage roll. This effort may be applied to melee attacks and thrown attacks, but only using a shield or knowing Unarmed Combat or Acrobatics would apply to missile attacks.


DESIGNER’S NOTES

Fatigue Points are an expendable resource that allow for heroic effort in times of need, but players must use them wisely. A wizard can’t afford to waste too much Fatigue on such heroic effort, but warriors have a fair amount of freedom to put in a little bit of extra effort that may turn the tide of battle.

This take on Fatigue makes it harder to die from exhaustion, but offers more flavor and more tactical options for characters to choose from. A character lost in the desert may last a bit longer, but will still be in grave danger of death.

The defensive option to allow an extra -1 Hit of damage for 1 FP was chosen because the original rules for shields, main-gauche use, Two-Weapon Fighting, etc., always refer to stopping hits of damage. They never mention applying a minus to an opponent’s DX. If the GM wishes, 1 FP could impose a -1 DX on a single enemy attack.
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Last edited by flankspeed; 09-10-2018 at 08:56 PM.
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Old 08-19-2018, 04:40 AM   #2
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Default Re: Fatigue Point Use for Wizards AND Warriors

I would like to see attacks, that do 0 damage due to armor or the weapon being of the 1d-3 type, turn into 1 fatigue damage.

So you would always do at least 1 fatigue when you hit someone.

This would eliminate some arena match ups that can go on for 50+ turns on average. I am not joking but that is what happens in my sim between some combatants. I am looking at you dagger + tower shield wielders. :-) It would also mean that a lot of fist fights would end in fatigue damage and not real damage that takes weeks to rest up. And it would make a knight on a battle field needing to take a breather now and then.

I would also like to introduce the Rest action. If you do a Rest action in active combat you regain 1 fatigue (you can limit it to a fatigue taken in that particular battle/encounter). And yes this is not logical compared to resting out side of combat, but it simulates a need for circling your opponent for a turn or two to catch your breath and makes you want to switch out the first line in a battle for a second line of fighters so you can spread the fatigue around evenly and so on.

And if we compare this to a Roman shield wall. Fighting with daggers or shorter/lighter weapons because it was a very cramped space. And using tower or large shields combined with at least 3 points of other armor. We are talking about a majority of all hits being of the 0 damage kind. Now many would grow tired and fatigued before they died from wounds. Which simulates that type of combat a lot closer than just everybody dying before they get tired.
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Old 08-19-2018, 06:07 AM   #3
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Default Re: Fatigue Point Use for Wizards AND Warriors

I really like this idea. I think I would make the trade two FP for a +1 attack or -1 defense bonus. This rule might have the ability to be abused if an adventure only has combat, so, I would find a lot of ways to sneak in things that use fatigue (not hard when you think about it).
  • Climbing up hill: -4 FP
  • Swimming across a river: -3 to -5 FP
  • Having a bad nights sleep: -3 FP
  • Rolling back that rock at the entrance to the dungeon: -5 FP

Basically, anytime your character(s) have to make a roll vs. ST would be a loss of FP. This means a little more work for the GM but will make the party think more about conserving their strength until it is really needed. And, lets face it, dungeon crawling is exhausting business.

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Old 08-19-2018, 07:41 AM   #4
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Default Re: Fatigue Point Use for Wizards AND Warriors

Great ideas here, and I love the idea of blocked damage still doing fatigue damage. There might need to be a threshold where the one being hit could shrug off even the fatigue cost (say if their protection was more than twice the damage amount), but in general it does make combat much more realistic to have people getting worn out instead of sliced to ribbons every time.
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Old 08-19-2018, 12:14 PM   #5
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Default Re: Fatigue Point Use for Wizards AND Warriors

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Originally Posted by Shadekeep View Post
Great ideas here, and I love the idea of blocked damage still doing fatigue damage. There might need to be a threshold where the one being hit could shrug off even the fatigue cost (say if their protection was more than twice the damage amount), but in general it does make combat much more realistic to have people getting worn out instead of sliced to ribbons every time.

Negative damage against unarmored opponents and against armored opponents you need to do more than half of the armor. That sounds fine to me.

And like Rick's idea of Great Effort, but it is a little too big. But a bonus of one or two seems reasonable. And it would balance out a wizard that can cast more spells.

Using more fatigue-costing actions would also create choices like, let's catch them on our horses. And the GM asks, do you bring your armor with you or not? Your horses will be more tired and you might lose more fatigue if you take it with you.

So you decide to sleep in the stable because the inn is a little too expensive? Ok you wake up in the morning but with one fST short from lack of comfort. Your max fST is one lower.

Now you have been out camping for two weeks, despite the fact you have decent gear and food, it is getting to you. You all lose two fST from your max fST. Staying in the field for a long time, will break you down slowly.

So fST for taking weak hits in combat. fST for doing hard work or feats of strength. Spend fST to get small bonuses. A rest action to get some of it back during a fight as well as the normal rules for getting it back after. And then add a lowering of max fST when exposed to long term fatigue that won't easily go away with just another bad nights rest/sleep.

All together it looks good. Should probably be an optional system though since it makes the system more complex, but one that I would definitely use from time to time.

And best of all it opens up some dilemmas that you can find in literature where the heroes face prolonged hardships and tiredness/tardiness can be just as important as good fighting skills. Races, chases and prolonged escapes where the person with most stamina, best transport, lightest and best equipment and best survival skills comes out the winner. Hard choices to lighten the load, take more dangerous routes to shake the faster pursuers, try to prolong the chase or stop now and fight while they still have some fight left in them and so on?

People not wanting to rough it all the time and sometimes splurge on a luxury inn just to get their max fST back up to par. People not working every day as if it was their last and actually plan for some free time to get back to their max fST before they head out again. Hearing players wanting to go on a bar round to wind down and because they need it (if that gives back fST or lowered max fST), not just because it would be fun. :-)

Characters could have different individual ways of getting back max fST losses like, spending time with family, night out drinking with friends, meditate and center themselves in a stone garden, be on stage and get accolades, compose a poem in tranquil surroundings, get back to routine training and barrack life, out riding and hunting for fun, etc. All of a sudden your character's hobbies and life outside adventuring and work would come into play more often.
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Old 08-19-2018, 06:52 PM   #6
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Default Re: Fatigue Point Use for Wizards AND Warriors

I’m thrilled that people are contributing great ideas and food for thought. I like creating separate pools of HP and FP because some damage types or situations are meant to wear out a character’s endurance rather than to outright kill them. Climb a sheer, vertical cliff making stressful saving throws along the way, and that’s FP loss. Failing a save and falling from a great height, that’s HP loss.

Enough Fatigue loss will eventually start to eat into Hit Points and become lethal, but it never sat well with me that a wizard who was merely getting tired from casting spells was effectively committing suicide by also reducing the number of Hits he could take before dying. However, I do still like FP loss to be a significant thing that could result in unconsciousness or even death on a critical failure.

Wizards must exhaust their FP before being able to cast using Hit Points. This forces wizards to pass through the state of reaching 0 FP, falling prone, and needing to save vs ST to remain conscious (plus save again to get back on their feet). And they will also need to deal with being at -2 to attribute rolls after becoming exhausted, making their Hit Point casting in the heat of battle less likely to succeed.

I also like how having separate HP and FP allows a wizard to cast a healing spell on himself, regaining HP for the temporary expenditure of FP. This doesn’t make sense in the original rules where using Fatigue ST for a healing spell would reduce the same pool of ST points that the character is trying to increase through healing.


BRAWLING & STRIKING TO SUBDUE

Giving characters separate HP and FP allows for most unarmed fighting to be non-lethal by default, inflicting FP loss instead of HP loss. Only when a character specifically states an intent to inflict permanent bodily injury would the damage reduce HP as per normal, armed combat.

Characters may also strike to subdue with blunt parts of their hand weapons so long as the attack does not include any fire-based damage (fire always inflicts lethal damage unless there are extenuating circumstances). Such attacks do only FP damage rather than HP damage, but the damage is halved (round down).

If the weapon has no blades, spikes, or pointed edges (such as a sap, club, staff, or blunt training weapon) or if the weapon/attack is unusually suited to doing non-lethal damage (such as a rock, boomerang, sling bullet, Magic Fist spell, low-ST Lightning Bolt, Taser, or beanbag shotgun round), then the attack inflicts full FP damage (not half).

Pacifist characters will be sure to use only blunt weapons striking for non-lethal damage, priestly wizards might rely on Magic Fist so as not to kill a potential convert, and everyone will find non-lethal weapons/attacks useful for capturing prisoners.

Note that when FP=2 or less, the character is at -2 to Attribute rolls, and when FP=0, the character falls prone and must roll 3d6 vs ST to remain conscious. On subsequent turns, if still conscious, the character may attempt to stand up by succeeding on another roll of 3d6 vs ST. Note also that wound effects of taking 5 Hits of FP damage in one turn will cause a -2 DX on the next turn, and 8 Hits of FP damage in one turn will cause the character to fall prone.

Any excess FP damage after reducing FP to 0 is carried over to HP as lethal damage. This is how continued beating of a helpless foe may result in death, whether intended or not. One cannot keep kicking someone on the ground or stoning someone in the biblical sense without almost certainly killing them.

When an attack inflicting non-lethal FP damage scores a critical hit of double or triple damage, any excess damage beyond FP=0 carries over to become HP damage instead. Alternatively, the GM may rule that a double-damage result inflicts full, normal, lethal HP damage that is not doubled, and a triple-damage result inflicts the full, normal amount of damage rolled (not triple) to BOTH of the character’s FP and HP simultaneously. Any excess FP damage would become HP damage as usual.

Now go enjoy the relatively friendly fisticuffs of a good-natured barroom brawl! And as long as you’re taverngoing, you might as well also enjoy some rules for intoxication by yours truly:

Tavern Fun Time: Alcohol, Drinking, Intoxication, and After Effects

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=159492
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Last edited by flankspeed; 09-04-2018 at 05:10 AM.
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Old 08-20-2018, 04:26 PM   #7
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Default Re: Fatigue Point Use for Wizards AND Warriors

Quote:
Originally Posted by flankspeed View Post
I’m thrilled that people are contributing great ideas and food for thought. I like creating separate pools of HP and FP because some damage types or situations are meant to wear out a character’s endurance rather than to outright kill them. Climb a sheer, vertical cliff making stressful saving throws along the way, and that’s FP loss. Failing a save and falling from a great height, that’s HP loss.
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=158953
And it would open the door for a cursed magic item, or items, that would double fatigue (think Frodo carrying the one ring). For that matter, there could be "zones of evil" that fatigue a character 1 FP per turn as long as the character is in it (think "the Poppy field" from The Wizard of Oz). Yes, you could do this to ST, but the effect would be much more dangerous.
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Old 08-22-2018, 10:55 AM   #8
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Default Re: Fatigue Point Use for Wizards AND Warriors

Quote:
HEROIC EFFORT USING FATIGUE POINTS

Characters could expend a Fatigue Point to put forth an extraordinarily heroic effort for one turn, gaining +1 to a specific hit roll, damage roll, or saving throw. Also, characters could expend a Fatigue Point to add +2 to Movement Allowance for one turn.

Characters who are armed with a melee weapon (or a missile weapon, but GM may rule it risks breaking), are using a shield or main-gauche, or who are unarmed but know Unarmed Combat, Brawling, or Acrobatics could expend a Fatigue Point to put forth extraordinary defensive effort for one turn, gaining an extra -1 Hit of damage stopped from a specific incoming damage roll. This effort may be applied to melee attacks and thrown attacks, but only using a shield or knowing Unarmed Combat or Acrobatics would apply to missile attacks.
I've toyed with some similar ideas, but this is probably simpler and more balanced.

I thought about using fatigue for my "elves are allergic to iron" rule variant - having them take 1 fatigue point per turn in contact with the metal, or something like that.
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Old 08-22-2018, 11:36 AM   #9
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Default Re: Fatigue Point Use for Wizards AND Warriors

At first glance I see splitting the Hit Points and Fatigue points as an easy, useful way of understanding what is happening to the character. It was always so confusing separating the two when they occured.
They will still take their physical damage and be killed when they reach 0. They still can reduce their ability to fight if they fatigue themselves too much.
But now you can clearly see what needs to be rested up vs healed.

What it does is increase the wizard's ability to not worry about Hit Point wounds affecting his spell fatigue. An injured wizard can still cast his full allotment of spells, even if damaged. Can't do that with current rule system. In keeping with the current system, perhaps if you are at 50% hit points, there is a negative DX or IQ penalty for casting when your fatigue also reaches 50%? or maybe the fatigue costs double at that point?

I like that you pass out at 0 fatigue instead of being killed. And that other tiring activities are clearly seen on the fatigue side.

Anyway, I like the elegance and will adopt it (depending on what the Legacy rules turn out to be).
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Old 08-22-2018, 08:33 PM   #10
flankspeed
 
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Default Re: Fatigue Point Use for Wizards AND Warriors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tolenkar View Post
And it would open the door for a cursed magic item, or items, that would double fatigue (think Frodo carrying the one ring). For that matter, there could be "zones of evil" that fatigue a character 1 FP per turn as long as the character is in it (think "the Poppy field" from The Wizard of Oz). Yes, you could do this to ST, but the effect would be much more dangerous.
Nice logical extension of the ideas here! I like being able to implement such ideas as affecting FP only, leaving a character vulnerable to being knocked out more easily or to collapsing from exhaustion, but not being immediately lethal and not making it easier to kill the character.

Perhaps negatively enchanted shackles could be created to keep prisoners exhausted and unable to fight back, sort of like “kryptonite for everyone.”
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