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Old 05-27-2020, 09:27 AM   #21
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Nitroglycerin invention date and TL

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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say here.
I think he's saying that when you're "unfamiliar" with an entire tech level, because that technology is beyond your learning and experience, that is doesn't make sense to have (GURPS-style) familiarity with some devices of that tech (that you don't understand), but not others. The familiarity penalty is subsumed in the tech penalty (in this view). When you drop by Isaac Newton's house to lend a hand with his work, he's going to be befuddled by the magic boxes with animated screens, not going to say "well, your unheard-of tech is strange, but at least this one runs Unix, so I'm better with that one".

Or to put it another way, sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from one model to another.

The other view would be to stack the unfamiliarity penalties on top of the tech penalties. Your default would be even worse the first time you encounter alien tech than just the tech penalty, because you're also by definition unfamiliar with _any_ model device of that TL. With experience, you might buy off the unfamliarity penalty with the weird device you don't comprehend, but at least you've played around with, making the lights go on and off , whereas that other device is yet harder, every bit as strange as the first one was originally.
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Old 05-27-2020, 11:27 AM   #22
Žorkell
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Default Re: Nitroglycerin invention date and TL

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I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say here. You would get worse at using other types of equipment once you get familiar with one of them, because from then on familiarity penalties apply?
An example.

Lets take someone like myself. I've never held a firearm let alone fired one, my only exposure to them is through film and TV. If a character like that was to pick up a pistol would you apply a familiarity penalty in addition to the default?
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Old 05-27-2020, 11:47 AM   #23
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Default Re: Nitroglycerin invention date and TL

One thing about familiarity is that the actual familiarity rules (while certainly far from perfect) are closer to realistic than what we often see in media.

A lot of fictional characters presented with unfamiliar equipment take under a minute (sometimes just a handful of seconds) to grapple with its oddities before that consideration is never raised again. (Assuming that the unfamiliarity is acknowledged as mattering at all.)
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Old 05-27-2020, 11:51 AM   #24
Andreas
 
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Default Re: Nitroglycerin invention date and TL

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Originally Posted by Žorkell View Post
An example.

Lets take someone like myself. I've never held a firearm let alone fired one, my only exposure to them is through film and TV. If a character like that was to pick up a pistol would you apply a familiarity penalty in addition to the default?
Yes, I think there should be a familiarity penalty for that. As you are now, while you could undoubtedly point the gun in the rough direction of your target and pull the trigger, figuring out things like where the safety is, how to pull out the magazine and how to reload it might take a while. Things like that would most likely be much more reliable and quick after you gain a general familiarity with the pistol.

Being able to hit a target once the pistol is properly prepared might not benefit as much from familiarity (though having experienced firing pistols before would be beneficial), but that is just a matter of not all things benefiting equally much from familiarity and thus beneath the resolution of the familiarity rules.

Last edited by Andreas; 05-27-2020 at 11:55 AM.
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Old 05-27-2020, 12:26 PM   #25
Celjabba
 
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Default Re: Nitroglycerin invention date and TL

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Originally Posted by Žorkell View Post
An example.

Lets take someone like myself. I've never held a firearm let alone fired one, my only exposure to them is through film and TV. If a character like that was to pick up a pistol would you apply a familiarity penalty in addition to the default?
I would. I do in my games when I use familiarity.

Along with dabbler perk, it help making a smooth transition between absolute default and the first skill point.

Last edited by Celjabba; 05-27-2020 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 05-27-2020, 01:20 PM   #26
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Nitroglycerin invention date and TL

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
One thing about familiarity is that the actual familiarity rules (while certainly far from perfect) are closer to realistic than what we often see in media.

A lot of fictional characters presented with unfamiliar equipment take under a minute (sometimes just a handful of seconds) to grapple with its oddities before that consideration is never raised again. (Assuming that the unfamiliarity is acknowledged as mattering at all.)
But then a lot of fictional characters have impossibly high statistics and skill levels and can soak a -2 penalty without breaking step.
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Old 05-27-2020, 02:10 PM   #27
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Default Re: Nitroglycerin invention date and TL

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But then a lot of fictional characters have impossibly high statistics and skill levels and can soak a -2 penalty without breaking step.
I think Guns have three different familiarity penalties, which lowers the default from DX-4 to DX-10. That's brutal.

But this is a separate discussion that I think would be useful to have. Can a moderator split the thread?
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Old 05-27-2020, 02:16 PM   #28
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Default Re: Nitroglycerin invention date and TL

Yes, that is generally why complete amateurs are much more likely to be killed by their own guns than to kill their attacker during a home invasion at night. When you apply -4 for default, -6 for lack of familiarity for type, action, and grip, and a -7 for vision penalties, they will pretty much automatically critically fail. Even 1 CP in Guns would give them a much better chance of not shooting themselves in the foot (400 hours at a firing range).
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Old 05-27-2020, 02:17 PM   #29
Celjabba
 
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Default Re: Nitroglycerin invention date and TL

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Yes, that is generally why complete amateurs are much more likely to be killed by their own guns than to kill their attacker during a home invasion at night. When you apply -4 for default, -6 for lack of familiarity for type, action, and grip, and a -7 for vision penalties, they will pretty much automatically critically fail. Even 1 CP in Guns would give them a much better chance of not shooting themselves in the foot (400 hours at a firing range).
You can get that first cp without the 400h at a firing range... but yes, off-topic.
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Old 05-27-2020, 03:21 PM   #30
SimonAce
 
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Default Re: Nitroglycerin invention date and TL

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Yes, that is generally why complete amateurs are much more likely to be killed by their own guns than to kill their attacker during a home invasion at night. When you apply -4 for default, -6 for lack of familiarity for type, action, and grip, and a -7 for vision penalties, they will pretty much automatically critically fail. Even 1 CP in Guns would give them a much better chance of not shooting themselves in the foot (400 hours at a firing range).
Not really.

Guns are very easy to use. Nearly anyone with a guns in their culture can point a weapon a pull the trigger and hit a target at close range with Default skill (-4) +4 for all out attack and bonus from telegraphed attack.

There are rules in I think Tactical Shooting or High Tech for being afraid, those should apply

Basic knowledge so ubiquitous in US culture its reasonable to assume that any adult a in the US whose would have default guns skill and not worry about the lack of familiarity. Many rural and small town children 8-10 an up would as well.

For teens and adults is probably global do to media. A base skill of 6 with a handgun is about right for anyone from TL4 and up

TL8 guns like Glocks and earlier double action revolvers are point and click and at close range no harder to use than a remote control and IMO are part of the CF

The only exceptions to ease of use would be very oddball guns like the P7 M8/10/13 squeeze cockers who would require an IQ roll at penalty to even make it fire. I think High Tech covers this too

Truly weird grips for ET guns would apply but human hand geometry is the same everywhere and a Colt Thunder revolver or a Glock would have no difficulty frankly neither would a smoothbore flintlock pistol though you'd need an IQ roll at a penalty to ready one

However if Pyrate Peet hands you his pistol, roll at -4 for your shot

In a home invasion scenario, fear checks apply though and may well inflict penalties.
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