Self control vs. Will

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Bullettop

Thank you all so much for the responses. I really appreciate it. I was only using the Burning house and seduction examples as examples. I guess, my confusion arises from the way the rules are stated on (p.360). They basically state "If something applies to everyone, use Will and ignore Self Control. If something applies only to you, use self control." Things like alcoholism, pyromania, Bloodlust, etc... are pretty easy. However, other times things can overlap. Usually in fright checks. A 20th century character might have to make a fright check upon encountering a giant spider, but would a character with arachnophobia roll Will or Self Control? Is it as simple as applying a penalty to the arachnophobic character's Fright Check, the way cowardice adds a penalty to to Fright Check? Or perhaps a starving character usind Will to resist the poisoned apple offered by the villain? Would he/she still roll Will if he/she had gluttony? Or is that a Self Control roll? Just having trouble differentiating between the two when there is an overlap.

Okay, Will Rolls (p.360) could stand to be clearer.

Let's use your giant spider encounter as an example. This is not a "game world event [that] causes negative effects (distraction, stunning, etc.) for anyone who fails a Will roll". In and of itself, encountering the giant spider does not call for a Will roll at all. The GM might or might not require a Will roll to stay and fight it but unless that's an option that the players try to take, it simply doesn't arise. OTOH, merely encountering the giant spider should trigger a character's arachnophobia, which does involve a self-control roll. Clearly, a self-control roll rather than a Will roll is called for.

Determining whether a self-control roll or a Will roll is the proper call is less difficult if you remember that the game world event examples for for Will rolls are for effects that are covered by existing rules calling for a Will roll, (e.g. not flinching when you get liquid in the face [box on p. B405] or making a Will roll to avoid dropping an object when struck by a whip [p. B406]). Even if you have a Disadvantage which would seem to interact with the event, you never substitute the self-control roll for the Will roll called for in the rules. Likewise, even if, as in our example of the giant spider, you might be called on to make a Will roll to stand and fight, you never substitute a Will roll for the self-control roll to trigger/avoid triggering Phobia (arachnophobia). And that's really what (p. B360) seems to be getting at.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

So, if a giant spider shows up and the GM declares it's sufficiently scary to provoke a Fright Check for everyone, then most of the party rolls against Will, but the character with Arachnophobia rolls against their self-control number for that disadvantage instead.

That can produce incoherent results, where having a disadvantage can actually make you better at resisting. What I do is require you to roll twice -- once on exactly the same roll as everyone else, once on self control.

[sir_pudding]

In the case of Fright Checks and Phobias, just roll the Fright Check with the penalty for Phobia.

ETA: I may be thinking of 3e, here sorry.

[Bullettop]

OK, seems to be getting a little clearer. A Will Roll is called for when a sudden event occurs, like a grenade going off, Resist a magic spell/psi, etc... Now and with Fright checks it looks like cowardice offers a penalty, nothing for phobia, but that appears to be because phobias replace the Fright Check. So, a person being water boarded would make a Will Roll, a person with A hydrophobia would make a Self Control Roll. On the same vein, a character who sees mangled bloody body makes a Fright Check, but a character with a phobia of blood makes a Self Control Roll... This seems somewhat inconsistent. Maybe Sir Pudding's method is best. I had to look in the characters book for a description of phobias, but it seems that phobia rules supersede the Fright Check Rolls if the phobia is of something that might scare a regular person... Am I on the right track? The phobia is always on, SC just over rides it.

[sir_pudding]

Well now I have to look it up, because clearly my memory is confused.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Bullettop

OK, seems to be getting a little clearer. A Will Roll is called for when a sudden event occurs, like a grenade going off, Resist a magic spell/psi, etc...

I...don't think a grenade going off generally involves any type of will check.

It is probably the most common resistance roll against psi and magic.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I...don't think a grenade going off generally involves any type of will check.

It could cause a Fright Check.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

It could cause a Fright Check.

It could, yes.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

If you're doing that, high Will, Fearlessness, or equivalents are essential characteristics of typical PCs.

And if the Character are required to have high Wills and Fearlessness in order to do standard heroic things, and they all thus take high Wills and Fearlessness you haven't accomplished anything.

Better to skip the entry fee for playing the character and just let them do heroic things without requiring the Will rolls first. Save the rolls for the truly brave acts, like facing down a dragon alone, or witnessing Cthulhu and such.

Originally Posted by Bullettop

A Will Roll is called for when a sudden event occurs, like a grenade going off..

As others have said, not so much. For that, if it's the start of combat, you roll for Surprise.

Tossing a grenade at a PC should not induce a Fear Check or Will roll unless the PC is Brontophobic (or afraid of explosives/grenades) or it's some sort of 'mental stunning' grenade (that like operates via Psichotronics or something).

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Save the rolls for the truly brave acts, like facing down a dragon alone, or witnessing Cthulhu and such.

In games without the supernatural, when do you ever roll then?

Tossing a grenade at a PC should not induce a Fear Check or Will roll unless the PC is Brontophobic (or afraid of explosives/grenades) or it's some sort of 'mental stunning' grenade (that like operates via Psichotronics or something).

From experience, I disagree. If you are running a realistic game and using the Combat Mind rules in Tactical Shooting someone throwing grenades at you absolutely should result in Fright Checks. There is a reason in real life why people just don't throw them back before they explode every time.