DF and Threshold-Limited Mana

[Bruno]

The problem I see with running Threshold magic with shorter recovery times and/or bigger recovery rate is it starts (rapidly) looking like the standard mana system, just with bigger starting numbers and the additional option of blowing the top off your mana pool and causing calamities. . . which means that mages have a lot of extra energy available, and periodically can blow themselves up, but don't have significant restrictions added to balance out the additional power gain.

If you cut down the starting threshold to balance out increased rate of recovery, it looks even MORE like the standard magic system, and I think it's simpler just to stick with the original instead, at that point.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

In my DF games, casters get threshold 0/Recovery Rate 1 for free. They can draw power from the fabric of the universe, but it creates "mana scars" around them. It's a last ditch recourse, and one that no one has attempted to use, yet (and I should remind them that they can, while smiling evilly ;) )

I don't run DF, but in many of my settings mages automatically have the free threshold 0 for free on top of some other fatigue or energy reserve system.
Amazing how shy players are about using that "free" 0 thresh ambient energy. ;)

Originally Posted by Bruno

If you cut down the starting threshold to balance out increased rate of recovery, it looks even MORE like the standard magic system, and I think it's simpler just to stick with the original instead, at that point.

Sometimes it's for thematic reasons, many settings don't have mages using their own FP, it isn't about power levels, it's about the setting.

[DemiBenson]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

Has anyone tried Dungeon Fantasy with the Threshold-Limited Mana from Thaumatology? How did it work out?

I've done it. It works far better than using FP-based casting. Why? Because with FP/energy casting, if the casters are drained and want to bump back to max, all they have to do is rest and recuperate, which means every encounter takes too long and the whole adventure is a series of fight-rest-fight-rest-etc.

With Threshold-based, they're never really completely drained (since they can always push the threshold just a bit more), and it recovers so slowly that might not be able to take the time out to rest back up to max. Also, the calamities add excellent roleplaying potential.

In the DF game I ran when I switched the mage and cleric over to Threshold-based, there were several instances where after a big fight, instead of resting they quickly patched everyone up, smirked at the cleric's new phobias or deformities from exceeding his threshold, and moved on deeper into the mountain.

[DemiBenson]

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

I don't run DF. However, I wouldn't suggest threshold magic for any combat-focused campaign; this applies to DF campaigns if I remember the books right.

Let me give you an example:

30 Threshold, 8 Recovery, +1 Calamity per 10 Excess Tally. (Default values from the book.)

I'm a mage. I have Threshold Magery 3. I cast Fireball 3d for 3 Threshold Tally. I do this 10 times over the course of a few hours exploring a dungeon. Now, suddenly, every spell I cast becomes dangerous to myself and my group. Worse, it will take me four (4!) days to recovery from those spells without dropping massive amounts of points into increasing my safe threshold total or speeding up my recovery (so it only takes one day instead to recover ...) or just giving me a safer excess amount ...

Now, contrast to a fatigue-based mage who can use Recover Energy or Breath Control to recover energy in minutes. Options threshold mages don't have.

Threshold mages can purchase Rapid Recovery with Accessibility or (Immediate) Preparation Required to bring down their tally during a period of rest.

Personally, I really like Threshold magic and how it changes the game - it makes mages more "real" and less like a video game, and gives mages a resource to manage like warriors counting arrows.

[DemiBenson]

Originally Posted by Stone Dog

I haven't done it yet, but that is mainly because getting a new crew used to GURPS is tricky enough.

If I do I would want to set it up like Preservers and Defilers. You can either pull mana from your own personal store nice and safely or you can pull it from the world around you and mess things up.

Pull mana in any two of these three ways; safe, fast or plentiful. Safe and fast is pulling it from your own stores. Safe and plentiful is conducting a nice ritual. Plentiful and fast is straight up defiling.

That's a very clever analogy. I am totally going to steal this for future use. :)

[Blood Legend]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

I don't run DF, but in many of my settings mages automatically have the free threshold 0 for free on top of some other fatigue or energy reserve system.
Amazing how shy players are about using that "free" 0 thresh ambient energy. ;)



Sometimes it's for thematic reasons, many settings don't have mages using their own FP, it isn't about power levels, it's about the setting.

Agreed. I summon meteors on gods, demons, airships and dragons, and despite having to work mostly on feel because the finer details of my GM's magic system are above me both as a player and a character ("Randal" is not a learn'ed one) I've kept a close watch on my threshold magic. I'm a special case in that I don't have hard numbers to tell me exactly when to stop throwing fireballs, but most of the fun comes from the tension of breaching the threshold, not the actual breaching.

I like to think it scares the sh*t out of my teammates something awful because I basically had to rend my soul asunder to gain that power, and I did it twice. My character is a complete idiot concerning most things. He's the moron who'll read the book what ought not be read, or touch the gem what ought not be touched (gets the plot moving) and he's the one summoning the world ending spells. The fact that the worst of it isn't even the spells themselves adds loads of fun to the mix.

[Anders]

How about using it only for clerics and druids - 'divine' casters, as it were? Would that unbalance the game precariously?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

How about using it only for clerics and druids - 'divine' casters, as it were? Would that unbalance the game precariously?

I don't see how, Thaumatology addresses this to some extent, in fact. It wouldn't be appropriate for a GURPS version of Athas, though. Preserving/Defiling is an arcane thing.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Amazing how shy players are about using that "free" 0 thresh ambient energy. ;)

I'm not surprised at all. It's like any casting in Twisted Mana, or spending HP to cast - nobody likes being kicked in the nuts for their core character basic abilities.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by Bruno

If you cut down the starting threshold to balance out increased rate of recovery, it looks even MORE like the standard magic system, and I think it's simpler just to stick with the original instead, at that point.

Simpler? FP tracking with various ads and spells isn't really simpler than RR tracked every hour. Unless you are referring to the temptation to blow yourself up for more power. I note that some people mention allowing Th0\RR1 UM in normal games so that is a feature to many.

I've toyed with the idea of using something like TH10\RR10 (approx normal magic) with stuff like paut to allow for thresh reduction on the fly. More fun if "paut" is a selection of varied drugs/potions/elixirs/rituals that are addictive and/or cumulatively poisonous and/or expensive and/or side effect-y and/or slow acting. DF has major themes including resource management, collecting weird crap for the plusses, and risk management, and this approach would add a lot of it. If done right, it could also spray ambiance around liberally:

"OK guys, my mystical energies are drained. Luckily, if I mix that manticore's crushed spleen into a bottle of my Ol' Janx Spiritous Essence I should be ready to go again. If you see my eyes start glowing red, however, knock me out and exorcise me before letting me go."

That said, I wouldn't use the normal calamity table for non-wizards. Priests would get penance and other religiously themed problems for example.