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Old 01-09-2020, 12:25 AM   #41
MrFix
 
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
That is correct for a grenade like a 'potato masher' that requires you trigger the timer separately. However, for Mills Bombs, 'Pineapple' grenades, M67 grenades and all similar ones this is not the case - the spoon flies off and the timer is started when you release the grenade, with no separate action being required.

Get grenade out, pull pin (can be done as part of the throw), throw.
You can release the spoon without throwing the grenade, that's how 'cooking' it works. Pulling the pin is never done as part of the throw, it's a separate ready action as per HT192.

Quote:
TL5 Fuse Grenade: [1] Takes a Ready maneuver to light the fuse – or five
Ready maneuvers if you must insert the fuse first! Malf. is 14.
TL6 Potato Masher:[2] Takes two Ready maneuvers to screw off the cap and
pull the cord.
TL6+ Ring and Spoon:[3] Takes a Ready maneuver to pull the pin or string.
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Old 01-09-2020, 12:55 AM   #42
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
And that right there is the problem with GURPS time to turn resolution and PC acuity and reaction speed, which my handwaving pretty well solves for grenade purposes.
You are right about it being too easy. It is a problem - or would have if it wasn't in a slightly cinematic Cliffhangers campaign. It was only a bit of fun, and only happened once...in a campaign started in 1994.
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Old 01-09-2020, 02:07 AM   #43
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
The extra rolls are for OODA loop. What Tactical Shooting calls Situational Awareness.

When my group first encountered this 'problem' we solved via extra Perception rolls... but if you're rolling to recognize grenades, why aren't you rolling for everything else? So now, suddenly everyone is making a Perception roll every turn, usually at penalty, and combats started to turn grindy and slow.

So I solved it by hand waving grenade timing. Pretty much solved the problem for almost everyone.
...
Thing is as you say it's a broader question of how you run combat (and what characters/players know and can react to) that's not limited to Grenades, so removing the fuze timing on Grenades might remove one area where it manifests it doesn't end the question.


And that works both ways, if you don't like people automatically jumping away from grenades or knowing exactly where they land and in the middle of combat being able to work out to the yard and second that they have enough time to reach them pick them up and throw them back. Then that's fine, but again it's a question of how you run combat not that grenades don't go bang as soon as they reach their target or miss by the system determined scatter.

Don't get me wrong if it works for you than that is all that matters, and frankly dealing with specific symptoms you don't like rather than causes is perfectly valid because the goal here is a pleasing game and not all symptoms are equal (and some cures are worse than the actual symptoms you are actually worried about).
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Old 01-09-2020, 07:59 AM   #44
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
You can release the spoon without throwing the grenade, that's how 'cooking' it works. Pulling the pin is never done as part of the throw, it's a separate ready action as per HT192.
Ever used a grenade? While you can, and if not in a hurry probably will remove the pin as a separate action, pulling it as part of the throwing action is quite possible and normal. The rules can say what they like, on this they are wrong unless you want to also say that when you throw a ball you must spend a turn 'readying' it even if it's already in hand.

As for 'cooking off' grenades, I've never seen it done in-game, though it sometimes makes sense (i.e. when you have a 4-5s fuse). In RL we were instructed quite strongly not to do it, because the nominal 4s fuse could go in as little as 3s (and up to 7s was also quite normal). The fuses in grenades are made by a low bidder, in general, and it shows.

Personally, aside from their use in clearing pillboxes and the like, grenades are more of a pain in the a** than an asset, IMO (smoke grenades aside - they won't kill you if they go off in your webbing for some reason). That said, for room-clearing and such where they are useful they are really useful, invaluable even.
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Old 01-09-2020, 10:45 AM   #45
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
While you can, and if not in a hurry probably will remove the pin as a separate action, pulling it as part of the throwing action is quite possible and normal.
I think the rules assume a one-handed draw of the grenade, in which case needing to reach over, grab the pin/string, and pull it (while depressing the lever with the hand holding it) seems to be appropriate as a Ready. If you are doing something like a two-handed draw, with one hand holding the grenade and the other already on the pin, pulling the pin should probably be a free action. The former is the way you typically see grenades drawn in media, but it sounds like the latter is more the way soldiers are actually trained to draw and use them. I certainly see no problem with allowing characters to shave an extra second of Ready off by doing a two-handed draw (this might require the character to have some points in Soldier or similar, but that's optional); note this can allow for a character to draw, arm, and throw the grenade in a single second with Fast-Draw (matching the way grenades are used in modern First Person Shooter games), although doing so with a weapon in one hand should probably penalize the Fast-Draw roll.
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Old 01-09-2020, 03:37 PM   #46
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
Ever used a grenade? While you can, and if not in a hurry probably will remove the pin as a separate action, pulling it as part of the throwing action is quite possible and normal. The rules can say what they like, on this they are wrong ... etc etc etc
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In RL we were instructed quite strongly .. etc etc etc
Exactly all of the things you said do not apply in GURPS beyond some kind of GM fiat ruling.

We're playing GURPS here, again, not real life, so giving real life advice for a GURPS game is simply being misleading.

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I think the rules assume a one-handed draw of the grenade, in which case needing to reach over, grab the pin/string, and pull it (while depressing the lever with the hand holding it) seems to be appropriate as a Ready. If you are doing something like a two-handed draw, with one hand holding the grenade and the other already on the pin, pulling the pin should probably be a free action. The former is the way you typically see grenades drawn in media, but it sounds like the latter is more the way soldiers are actually trained to draw and use them. I certainly see no problem with allowing characters to shave an extra second of Ready off by doing a two-handed draw (this might require the character to have some points in Soldier or similar, but that's optional); note this can allow for a character to draw, arm, and throw the grenade in a single second with Fast-Draw (matching the way grenades are used in modern First Person Shooter games), although doing so with a weapon in one hand should probably penalize the Fast-Draw roll.
GURPS assumes one-handed draw for all one-handed items, that's why pistols are drawn into one-handed stance and TS pistol styles give the ability to buy grip mastery right away - so you can actually draw into a two-handed stance.

To draw a grenade into two-handed stance, it's reasonable to require such perk, otherwise it's a ready action to change grip from one to two-handed. It's assumed you already do that as part of Ready maneuver to prime the grenade.

GM may rule to include it as a perk, "Quick Prime", which allows you to pull the pin as part of a fast-draw (grenade). On failure, grenade is not primed AND you spend a ready action drawing it. On critical failure, the grenade is primed AND you drop it under your feet.
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Old 01-09-2020, 04:27 PM   #47
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
Exactly all of the things you said do not apply in GURPS beyond some kind of GM fiat ruling.

We're playing GURPS here, again, not real life, so giving real life advice for a GURPS game is simply being misleading.
While GURPS is not a reality simulator, it is strongly informed by reality. Explaining how something is done in real life is often something that can be readily imported into GURPS, and will improve verisimilitude when you do so. Sure, maybe it's not the way the things work currently in GURPS, but if it improves the experience without adding much complication, there's very little reason to not do it.

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
GURPS assumes one-handed draw for all one-handed items, that's why pistols are drawn into one-handed stance and TS pistol styles give the ability to buy grip mastery right away - so you can actually draw into a two-handed stance.
Looking at that entry (TS11), there's an implication that you can Fast-Draw (at least) immediately into a two-handed grip without the Perk, but at -2 to the attempt. Something similar for grenades would be appropriate, I think. I'll note that, from Rupert's post (and considering the character probably doesn't want to risk blowing himself up much), such a draw doesn't mean you draw the grenade and pull the pin at the same time; rather, you draw the grenade and grab the pin at the same time, pulling it (as a free action) once you're ready for the timer to start (often just before throwing, although if you want to risk cooking it off you may indeed want to pull it as soon as it's ready). You could still have a Critical Failure result in dropping a primed grenade, but I'd have the Perk avoid this (as the Perk is more like Grip Mastery, which lets you draw one-handed then put your other hand in position; with the Perk, a Critical Failure is the same for a normal Critical Failure for Fast-Drawing a grenade (that is, you just drop it).
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Old 01-09-2020, 04:56 PM   #48
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Thing is as you say it's a broader question of how you run combat (and what characters/players know and can react to) that's not limited to Grenades, so removing the fuze timing on Grenades might remove one area where it manifests it doesn't end the question.
In my case, it did end the question.

Or rather, the pebble drop into the pond that was solving grenades in my game, grew into the Chicxulub event of how I run GURPS (in other words that one change ended up heralding sweeping changes in almost every aspect of how I run, a switch from very gritty, detail oriented rules into very loose high action cinematics).
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Old 01-09-2020, 05:51 PM   #49
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I think the rules assume a one-handed draw of the grenade, in which case needing to reach over, grab the pin/string, and pull it (while depressing the lever with the hand holding it) seems to be appropriate as a Ready. If you are doing something like a two-handed draw, with one hand holding the grenade and the other already on the pin, pulling the pin should probably be a free action. The former is the way you typically see grenades drawn in media, but it sounds like the latter is more the way soldiers are actually trained to draw and use them. I certainly see no problem with allowing characters to shave an extra second of Ready off by doing a two-handed draw (this might require the character to have some points in Soldier or similar, but that's optional); note this can allow for a character to draw, arm, and throw the grenade in a single second with Fast-Draw (matching the way grenades are used in modern First Person Shooter games), although doing so with a weapon in one hand should probably penalize the Fast-Draw roll.
You need yo use both hands to remove the pin or unscrew the cap and pull it anyway. Taking the grenade out of your webbing (or boot, or whatever) can generally be done one-handed without difficulty.

Arming the grenade one-handed should not be the default, and should take at least that extra second, plus unreadying whatever you had in the off-hand. This, by the way, is the big drawback of a grenade in terms of the time it takes. You have to put down or holster your gun, arm the grenade, and then either throw the grenade and then re-ready the gun, or re-ready the gun (in your off-hand, and really only practical with a pistol) or pick it up, and then throw the grenade. It gets messy with a rifle, and most people playing with grenades will have a rifle.

The thing is, once that pin is out, Mr. Grenade is nobody's friend, even if the igniter has not been triggered yet. Once it has, and it's cooking off, it's actively your enemy and keeping it around is a high risk. The shorter the fuse, the higher the risk, obviously.
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Old 01-09-2020, 06:02 PM   #50
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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GURPS assumes one-handed draw for all one-handed items, that's why pistols are drawn into one-handed stance and TS pistol styles give the ability to buy grip mastery right away - so you can actually draw into a two-handed stance.
Some of TS's rulling on such things are a bit odd. That's like saying that you must take two turns to ready a two-handed grip on a weapon such as a staff or a spear if you pick it up with one hand initially. A penalty to fast-draw to draw into a two-handed grip on a pistol? Sure, that makes sense, but to say it takes two seconds to draw into a two-handed grip is not reasonable, IMO.
Quote:
GM may rule to include it as a perk, "Quick Prime", which allows you to pull the pin as part of a fast-draw (grenade). On failure, grenade is not primed AND you spend a ready action drawing it. On critical failure, the grenade is primed AND you drop it under your feet.
Which is massively worse than other Fast-Draw critical failures, and doesn't really pass the sniff test, given that the other results are 'pin out, ready to go' and 'ready, but pin in', but there's no simple 'you dropped it'. The pins aren't that easy to remove, and on at least modern grenades there's another clip that you remove as you throw them that would stop this.
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