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Old 03-26-2013, 05:14 AM   #41
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Default Re: [WWII Historians] Why did Hitler have WILL 18?

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Originally Posted by jason taylor View Post
Scipio didn't depend on Charisma as much as Hannibal. He was a representative of a bureaucracy whose precise purpose was to eliminate the erratic nature of dependence on charisma in public life.
The Roman legions were like the Terminator. They couldn't be bargained with. They couldn't be reasoned with. They did not feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And they absolutely would not stop, ever, until you were dead.

Last edited by trans; 03-26-2013 at 05:15 AM. Reason: Add period
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Old 03-26-2013, 05:39 AM   #42
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Default Re: [WWII Historians] Why did Hitler have WILL 18?

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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
Smooth Operator gives a boost to a huge - a vastly huge - range of skills. I'd be extremely wary of anything that tends to insinuate that maybe Hitler was some kind of generalist badass.
I'd say Smooth Operator 1 or 2, at least. He was a very successful professional politician, for a while....

Edit: Compare Hitler to William Jefferson Clinton, for example, and I think Hitler will hold up pretty well. And Clinton is the Smooth Operator par excellence.

Last edited by trans; 03-26-2013 at 05:49 AM. Reason: sp
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Old 03-26-2013, 06:57 AM   #43
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Default Re: [WWII Historians] Why did Hitler have WILL 18?

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Originally Posted by jason taylor View Post
Saying "Hitler had will" is not being an apologist for Hitler. It would have been nice if he had had a bit less will and a good deal more won't.
La Rochefoucauld stressed that point when he said that "Some bad people would be better if they had no good in them at all." Or in otherwords, only evil people with strengths and virtues are able to be threats.
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Old 03-26-2013, 07:35 AM   #44
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Default Re: [WWII Historians] Why did Hitler have WILL 18?

Yep It would be much better if evil megalomaniacs are not also good politicians, propagandist etc.
So its not being apologist saying Hitler had a lot of charisma or was good at professional politics etc. Quite likely it would have been so much better if he weren't - or not* I am not a professional alternative historian :D though these forums should be a great place for alternate histories of all kinds. (Infinite worlds much).

*Off the tangent has anybody read any alternate history stories where removal of certain Fuehrer makes everything even worse somehow? On related note ..
http://www.treelobsters.com/2013/03/...-way-down.html
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php...&id=2920#comic
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:40 AM   #45
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Default Re: [WWII Historians] Why did Hitler have WILL 18?

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Where would you put my favorite, Scipio Africanus?
I didn't assign those levels, I just compiled the list from published GURPS Books. I don't think Scipio Africanus has a GURPS write up.
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:47 AM   #46
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Default Re: [WWII Historians] Why did Hitler have WILL 18?

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I'd say Smooth Operator 1 or 2, at least. He was a very successful professional politician, for a while....

Edit: Compare Hitler to William Jefferson Clinton, for example, and I think Hitler will hold up pretty well. And Clinton is the Smooth Operator par excellence.
Talent yes, but does it have to be Smooth Operator? His high skills would be Performance, Politics, Propaganda, Psychology and Public Speaking. Something like Intuitive Statesman (Talents page 11) might be better.
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Old 03-26-2013, 09:07 AM   #47
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Default Re: [WWII Historians] Why did Hitler have WILL 18?

Smooth Operator: Acting,
Carousing, Detect Lies, Diplomacy,
Fast-Talk, Intimidation, Leadership,
Panhandling, Politics, Public
Speaking, Savoir-Faire, Sex Appeal,
and Streetwise. Reaction bonus: con
artists, politicians, salesmen, etc. –
but only if you are not trying to
manipulate them. 15 points/level

Hitler was epically good at all of these skills except for Carousing, because he was a teetotaler (although that is disputed, too). If you ask about Panhandling and Streetwise, how about his time as a bum in Vienna?
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Old 03-26-2013, 09:30 AM   #48
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Default Re: [WWII Historians] Why did Hitler have WILL 18?

For me, Hitler's Will is determined by the plot of the game.

If you need a strong Hitler, give him 18, or maybe more.

If you need some stuttering drug addict who's barely keeping it together, or silly Hitler, weird Hitler, useless Hitler, puppet Hitler... well, maybe not so high.

But then, I tend to run my NPCs on the fly based on what the game needs at that moment for the story to go forward. :)
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Old 03-26-2013, 09:31 AM   #49
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Default Re: [WWII Historians] Why did Hitler have WILL 18?

"Puppet Hitler" should be the name of a band.
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Old 03-26-2013, 09:41 AM   #50
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Default Re: [WWII Historians] Why did Hitler have WILL 18?

Will?
A case can be made that Hitler had above-average willpower. Superhuman will, however, is out of the question.
A German general said that the last one to speak with Hitler would get what he wanted. His laziness isn't a sign of strong will. And when things went badly, he refused to confront reality; as the war went on, he gave up visits to the front lines and sought refuge in his delusions.
On the other hand, he certainly managed to muster enough will when something really interested him, and then some, and provided things went well.
I'd give him Will 12, no more.
He might very well have had a Disadvantage, a Delusion concerning his superior willpower [-5 or -10].

Charisma?
Charisma should work on anyone. On the contrary, we know that people who did not share Hitler's views, and to whom Hitler could not or would not tell what they wanted to hear, were unimpressed with him. Impressing a German man-in-the-street who already seethed for Versailles, or wowing a humble secretary once he was Führer, or convincing a German general whom he was paying very hefty slush money is one thing. When it came to impressing peers to whom he couldn't make extravagant promises, say Chamberlain, Mussolini or Franco, or leading generals who wanted to have no truck with him, he did not come to much.
As further proof, we should look at him through the eyes of those who saw him before 1914. If Charisma is an innate gift, then one should have it from birth. You won't find anyone who was impressed with Hitler in 1913. You'll find plenty of accounts about truly charismatic persons who were so already as youngsters.
Additionally, I would not consider testimony before the IMT. If I were the minion of a criminal mastermind, how would I be better off: by admitting that he was just a mean, hateful, paranoid small man which I followed because it suited me, or by portraying him as having near-supernatural enthrallment powers?
That said, I would probably give him some Charisma, say 1 or 2, purely from a game-mechanics point of view. The reason being that he probably gets some/several negative reaction modifiers (OPH, Stubbornness, maybe an Unattractive Appearance etc.), and he probably deserves some way to reduce their effect.

Skills and skill-related Advantages
What remains is basically skill, which is remarkable anyway given that Hitler largely taught himself what to do on his own. Public Speaking, Fast-Talk, Intimidation, Propaganda, Politics and many other skills.
On top of that, the ace that GURPS 4e has and that the previous edition lacked is Talents, i.e. natural Advantages that support groups of skills. I agree with NineDaysDead, Smooth Operator is possible but Intuitive Statesman also seems likely. I'd mention Talker, too. Talents would represent, IMHO, what Hitler was unquestionably gifted with: skills to manipulate people.
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