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Old 02-20-2020, 03:26 PM   #11
tomc
 
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Default Re: A Legacy Edition version of Advantages of Great Strength

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Extrapolating damage at +1 per 2 ST over min ST, I get 2d+3 for a ST 18 War Axe, not 4d..
I'm not talking about a bonus for being above the min ST for a weapon, but a larger weapon with a min ST of 18.

I was looking at:

Hatchet St 9 = 1d
War Axe ST 12 = 2d
Battle Axe ST 15=3d
War Daddy Axe ST 18 = 4d.

ETA: I should have used a different name in the earlier post. I forgot "War Axe" was already used.
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Last edited by tomc; 02-20-2020 at 04:04 PM. Reason: Clarity
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Old 02-20-2020, 10:01 PM   #12
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: A Legacy Edition version of Advantages of Great Strength

If you poke around the House Rules threads a bit you'll find a link to a google doc I posted, containing stats for a bunch of other weapons that are generally consistent with the pattern in RAW. It includes a few 'big versions' of familiar things (though nothing intended for giants; I suggest an easily recipe for those is just club damage +1, which won't be too far off).
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Old 02-20-2020, 10:48 PM   #13
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Default Re: A Legacy Edition version of Advantages of Great Strength

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Originally Posted by tomc View Post
I'm not talking about a bonus for being above the min ST for a weapon, but a larger weapon with a min ST of 18.

I was looking at:

Hatchet St 9 = 1d
War Axe ST 12 = 2d
Battle Axe ST 15=3d
War Daddy Axe ST 18 = 4d.

ETA: I should have used a different name in the earlier post. I forgot "War Axe" was already used.
Oh I see. I think probably even for larger weapons maybe shouldn't be linear? Otherwise you're adding about a point per ST, which means big weapons end up nearly able to kill their giant wielders in one blow, while it in the human range, it's more like 2-3 unarmored hits to kill on average.

e.g. the ST 30 weapon at that rate would do 8d, averaging 28 points, instead of the Melee Giant Club at ST 30 3d+3, or the RAW ST 31 Maul at 2d+5.

My own house rule / table wound up with a ST 30-31 giant using a 2-handed sword/axe at 5d+2, so average 19.5. Hmm.
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Old 02-21-2020, 05:16 AM   #14
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Default Re: A Legacy Edition version of Advantages of Great Strength

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Oh I see. I think probably even for larger weapons maybe shouldn't be linear? Otherwise you're adding about a point per ST, which means big weapons end up nearly able to kill their giant wielders in one blow, while it in the human range, it's more like 2-3 unarmored hits to kill on average.

e.g. the ST 30 weapon at that rate would do 8d, averaging 28 points, instead of the Melee Giant Club at ST 30 3d+3, or the RAW ST 31 Maul at 2d+5.

My own house rule / table wound up with a ST 30-31 giant using a 2-handed sword/axe at 5d+2, so average 19.5. Hmm.
Yes, it probably shouldn't be linear.

But you could also throw in the notion that a giant is not a scaled up human, different physiologies mean giants aren't as good with human style weapons. They have the DX limitation for a reason. And a lot of their ST represents structure, not muscle.

While the above might provide a justification for the GM to do what they please, not that they need it, I think your idea of giants not killing each other with swords in one blow is the most compelling.

Then again, is the ST stat for humans linear at these high levels?
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Last edited by tomc; 02-21-2020 at 05:24 AM.
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Old 02-21-2020, 10:04 AM   #15
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Default Re: A Legacy Edition version of Advantages of Great Strength

Human melee damage compared to the wielder's ST is linear in the ST 8 to 13 range, or in the 8 to 16 range IF you ignore the need to start using 2-handed weapons at ST 14.

Below ST 8, the damage is flat (dagger, no minST, 1d-1) and lethality (attacks needed to kill your twin) therefore actually goes UP with lower ST.

At ST 17-20, melee damage seems stuck at 3d+1 because there are no larger weapons to use (though in theory they might be possible to design & build - they're just not listed).

At ST 21-30, melee damage using a club starts shallowly increasing (+1 per +5 ST) so that using a 1-handed club does more damage than a bastard sword, up to as much damage as a battleaxe (but at 1d+7 vs 3d - same average, higher minimum, less maximum).

At ST 30+, melee damage continues to increase even more shallowly (+1 pet +10 ST!) and clubs now do more damage than greatswords.

(And ST 30 dragons do the melee damage of a ST 10 human . . . so yes, physiology matters, and ST of TFT monsters tends to be about how hard they are to kill, not how much damage they do . . . and also, dragons do a lot less damage than they probably logically should do for their size, for "balance" reasons rather than logic reasons.)

Last edited by Skarg; 02-21-2020 at 10:08 AM.
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Old 02-21-2020, 10:30 AM   #16
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Default Re: A Legacy Edition version of Advantages of Great Strength

Good analysis. Thanks!
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Old 02-21-2020, 11:27 AM   #17
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Default Re: A Legacy Edition version of Advantages of Great Strength

Lesser Demons might be the extreme example of low damage at high ST: Their bare handed (pawed? tentacled?) attack does 2d, at a ST score of 50.
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Old 02-21-2020, 12:06 PM   #18
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Default Re: A Legacy Edition version of Advantages of Great Strength

I had to house rule that to show why demons don't carry clubs.

https://www.hcobb.com/tft/house_rules.html#demons
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Old 02-21-2020, 12:15 PM   #19
Skarg
 
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Default Re: A Legacy Edition version of Advantages of Great Strength

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Good analysis. Thanks!
Actually, I made a BIG mistake on the last part. At ST 41+, the increment is every 10 ST, but the damage increase per increment is +1 DIE, not +1, so that averages +3.5 per +10 ST, which is actually steeper than the increases from 17-40, which vary from +1 per 5 to +1 per 3.

So, it's weird.


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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
Lesser Demons might be the extreme example of low damage at high ST: Their bare handed (pawed? tentacled?) attack does 2d, at a ST score of 50.
Yes, bare-hand damage for a ST 50 giant would be 3d+1 if using the table (and that's with no talents or talons). And that's even at the far end of one ST bracket - at ST 51, they'd do 4d+1!

The 4d damage of a full Demon is also much weaker than the table would indicate - it'd be 8d+1, or 9d+1 at ST 101.

Or, maybe that indicates what tomc and I were saying about TFT monster ST - it represents how hard they are to kill, but isn't necessarily how strong their attacks are. So a demon doing 2d with bare hands, depending on whether they get any talent or talon bonuses, probably has arm strength in the 21 to 30 range according to the unarmed combat damage table. A full demon doing 4d with claws probably has arm ST 41 to 50 judging by that table.
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Old 02-21-2020, 02:21 PM   #20
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Default Re: A Legacy Edition version of Advantages of Great Strength

I'm not super stressed about it the reason why one creature gets the human unarmed damage table and another doesn't. But it is something you definitely have to think through when you design new monsters, as the choice will substantially impact how dangerous they are.
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