How to live forever in TFT

[Tywyll]

Originally Posted by MikMod

ITL: "Shifting to the new shape gives you the physical, but not the mental, abilities of that shape"

Is it wrong to think that youth is a physical attribute?

Of course, Dissolve Enchantment becomes a death spell for you at some point...although looking it up, its not clear what the ST cost would be. Maybe 10? The same as your shapeshift?

Youth isn't a physical attribute. Age is determined by complex cellular factors, many of which are better thought of as damage rather than a constant physical element.

That said, I would allow you to shapechange a one armed person into a two armed person. Though note, it wouldn't be something that made you look exactly the same. Since it only aids disquise and doesn't make it perfect, that means you couldn't look exactly like yourself. You'd have to roll to pass as yourself, meaning there would be differences. Maybe you hit an uncanny valley element?

[Tywyll]

Originally Posted by JLV

Personally, if it were in a game I were GM-ing, I would say your one-legged person would be a one-legged bunny or giant or whatever it was you were morphing them into -- if it was a wolf, they'd be a three-legged wolf, or if a spider, they'd be a seven-legged spider. I don't see shapeshifting as a way to heal something, nor do I believe that was ever the intent of the spell.

The problem with that interpretation is that it ignores the fact that shapeshifting casually adds things already. Even in your example above, you are giving people tails and extra legs. Why wouldn't it turn someone into something else that had the part.

Granted, they wouldn't look exactly like themselves anymore, which might have its own issues.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Tywyll

The problem with that interpretation is that it ignores the fact that shapeshifting casually adds things already. Even in your example above, you are giving people tails and extra legs. Why wouldn't it turn someone into something else that had the part.

Granted, they wouldn't look exactly like themselves anymore, which might have its own issues.

What the spell description says it does it turn someone into a different type of creature.

It doesn't say it has the ability to change someone into a different age or health state or even a different appearance of the same type of creature. (Hcobb is reading into the Disguise talent description to infer that it does, but I think Disguise is just talking about helping a disguise that is about being someone of a different type, not that Shapeshift lets you have whatever sort of appearance/body-condition/age you want, or else it wouldn't just be a one-die modiffier to your Disguise roll - it'd make a perfect disguise.)

Moreover, the spell description also says it is the "Classic spell used to turn princes to frogs, etc.", one of the main features of which is that when someone goes back to their original form, they're back to being themselves again. Not themself but at 20 years old with no diseases, no lost body parts, no scars, and looking like Clark Gable.

Of course, if a GM wants this to be an uber-panacea spell, have fun. But the logical implication seems to me that any town when an amenable wizard with this spell would be full of super-beautiful young healthy people with no deformities, warts or scars, and that wizard would be in the money.

[zot]

Originally Posted by Skarg

What the spell description says it does it turn someone into a different type of creature.

The magic item writeup says that but the spell says, "Transforms its subject into any known type of creature, with any attributes."

[Tywyll]

Originally Posted by Skarg

What the spell description says it does it turn someone into a different type of creature.

It doesn't say it has the ability to change someone into a different age or health state or even a different appearance of the same type of creature. (Hcobb is reading into the Disguise talent description to infer that it does, but I think Disguise is just talking about helping a disguise that is about being someone of a different type, not that Shapeshift lets you have whatever sort of appearance/body-condition/age you want, or else it wouldn't just be a one-die modiffier to your Disguise roll - it'd make a perfect disguise.)

Note:
1) You are inferring as well. There is no clear answer here, just opinions.
2) I never said it should be a perfect disquise, clearly it isn't, hence my comments about how you would never look completely like yourself.
3) I doubt that disquise is intended to be required to pass as a dog...therefore it can really only follow that it matters when trying to look like someone or something specific. Also note it says you'll need new clothes, not something that is a problem unless you become humanoid.
4) Giving someone back an arm doesn't change their health state (i.e. it doesn't heal damage) and I never suggested it should. But if I can use it to give someone 8 legs, giving them back an arm shouldn't be an issue. They just have to sacrifice a big component of who they are (their appearance) to get that benefit.
5) What is it, an IQ 18 spell? REgeneration, which explicitly does cure limbloss, is IQ15. So...why care?
6) Limbloss isn't an element of normal TFT play, so why get caught up on the idea that this spell might be used to help a one-armed beggar?

Moreover, the spell description also says it is the "Classic spell used to turn princes to frogs, etc.", one of the main features of which is that when someone goes back to their original form, they're back to being themselves again. Not themself but at 20 years old with no diseases, no lost body parts, no scars, and looking like Clark Gable.

As pointed out above, that's not all it says.

Also, I never said the effect would be permanent. Your plasticine body would naturally lose the fake limb if you ever got hit with Dissolve Enchantment.

Also I never said anything about diseases.

Of course, if a GM wants this to be an uber-panacea spell, have fun. But the logical implication seems to me that any town when an amenable wizard with this spell would be full of super-beautiful young healthy people with no deformities, warts or scars, and that wizard would be in the money.

No, the logical conclusion is that anyone who could cast this spell would reserve it for the rich and powerful. The average peasant or merchant wouldn't be able to afford a make-over. Royalty would probably also avoid it because since they can't exactly look like themselves any more, it creates identity problems and concerns. Maybe a monarch might have it performed on an ugly child while they are still young and not in power, to make a better marriage prospect later, but unless under duress you probably wouldn't want to risk the head-aches of being accused of being an imposter (and making it easier for someone to duplicate your fake appearance and claim to be the real you). You want someone to have to make their disquise check to pass as you!

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by zot

The magic item writeup says that but the spell says, "Transforms its subject into any known type of creature, with any attributes."

I was looking at the spell description. What distinction are you seeing that I'm still not seeing?

Originally Posted by Tywyll

... 4) Giving someone back an arm doesn't change their health state (i.e. it doesn't heal damage) and I never suggested it should. But if I can use it to give someone 8 legs, giving them back an arm shouldn't be an issue. They just have to sacrifice a big component of who they are (their appearance) to get that benefit.
5) What is it, an IQ 18 spell? REgeneration, which explicitly does cure limbloss, is IQ15. So...why care?
6) Limbloss isn't an element of normal TFT play, so why get caught up on the idea that this spell might be used to help a one-armed beggar?

Not having a limb is a big deal.
"Normal" TFT? There are two (albeit optional) rules in AM/ITL which involve losing limbs in combat. Abnormal or not, it happens in my games, and is very significant. Like One-Armed Bill in Bendwyn, there are characters in my game world who lost limbs and decided to retire or change careers after losing a limb, because there was no way to magically replace them. If there were so simple and inexpensive a way, it invalidates the logic of them doing that. It also removes the (to me, valuably interesting and immersive) element of play where people sometimes lose their limbs in combat and then actually have to deal with that situation rather than having everything be magically and fairly trivially curable at the Wizard's Guild in most major cities.

Originally Posted by Tywyll

... Also, I never said the effect would be permanent. Your plasticine body would naturally lose the fake limb if you ever got hit with Dissolve Enchantment.

Cool. I like that sort of limitation. I was also thinking that getting hit by a lightning bolt might involve a roll as for magic items to break the enchantment.

But I've been responding to this thread mainly as a discussion about the RAW, and what exploits RAW Shapeshifting allows other than what it says: changing species and shuffling attribute points.

IIRC I've written more than once that I agree it can and should be house-ruled by a GM to specify more limits and risks/consequences, and there are all sorts of ways it can be done. I've been posting here to point out both the need, and what I think is the invalidity of Hcobb's original assertion that RAW it means it can be used to trivially live forever, or in other ways that seem like an undesirable stretch to me.

Originally Posted by Tywyll

No, the logical conclusion is that anyone who could cast this spell would reserve it for the rich and powerful. The average peasant or merchant wouldn't be able to afford a make-over. Royalty would probably also avoid it because since they can't exactly look like themselves any more, it creates identity problems and concerns. Maybe a monarch might have it performed on an ugly child while they are still young and not in power, to make a better marriage prospect later, but unless under duress you probably wouldn't want to risk the head-aches of being accused of being an imposter (and making it easier for someone to duplicate your fake appearance and claim to be the real you). You want someone to have to make their disquise check to pass as you!

That is an interesting limitation and those consequences make sense for it.

[zot]

Originally Posted by zot

The magic item writeup says that but the spell says, "Transforms its subject into any known type of creature, with any attributes."

Originally Posted by Skarg

I was looking at the spell description. What distinction are you seeing that I'm still not seeing?

"Any" includes the current type and "different" does not.

[Tywyll]

Originally Posted by Skarg

Not having a limb is a big deal.
"Normal" TFT?

Normal as in played without optional rules.

There are two (albeit optional) rules in AM/ITL which involve losing limbs in combat. Abnormal or not, it happens in my games, and is very significant. Like One-Armed Bill in Bendwyn, there are characters in my game world who lost limbs and decided to retire or change careers after losing a limb, because there was no way to magically replace them. If there were so simple and inexpensive a way, it invalidates the logic of them doing that. It also removes the (to me, valuably interesting and immersive) element of play where people sometimes lose their limbs in combat and then actually have to deal with that situation rather than having everything be magically and fairly trivially curable at the Wizard's Guild in most major cities.

Have you also removed regeneration? Because its a spell a starting character could have. Do limbs get lost and not replaced in Cidri? Sure. Because the Wizard's Guild monopolizes their power and doesn't do charity. should a midlevel character be able to afford such a spell? I'd say yes.

Cool. I like that sort of limitation. I was also thinking that getting hit by a lightning bolt might involve a roll as for magic items to break the enchantment.

I don't think lightning bolt should be able to dissolve enchantments. That seems way too powerful.

But I've been responding to this thread mainly as a discussion about the RAW, and what exploits RAW Shapeshifting allows other than what it says: changing species and shuffling attribute points.

IIRC I've written more than once that I agree it can and should be house-ruled by a GM to specify more limits and risks/consequences, and there are all sorts of ways it can be done. I've been posting here to point out both the need, and what I think is the invalidity of Hcobb's original assertion that RAW it means it can be used to trivially live forever, or in other ways that seem like an undesirable stretch to me.

Oh, I completely agree that Hcobb was reaching on some of his interpretations for sure!

[zot]

Originally Posted by Skarg

Not having a limb is a big deal.
"Normal" TFT? There are two (albeit optional) rules in AM/ITL which involve losing limbs in combat. Abnormal or not, it happens in my games, and is very significant. Like One-Armed Bill in Bendwyn, there are characters in my game world who lost limbs and decided to retire or change careers after losing a limb, because there was no way to magically replace them. If there were so simple and inexpensive a way, it invalidates the logic of them doing that. It also removes the (to me, valuably interesting and immersive) element of play where people sometimes lose their limbs in combat and then actually have to deal with that situation rather than having everything be magically and fairly trivially curable at the Wizard's Guild in most major cities.

Originally Posted by Tywyll

Have you also removed regeneration? Because its a spell a starting character could have. Do limbs get lost and not replaced in Cidri? Sure. Because the Wizard's Guild monopolizes their power and doesn't do charity. should a midlevel character be able to afford such a spell? I'd say yes.

I agree with Skarg on this one, I think Regeneration is OP and should be removed. I'm fine with leaving regeneration in the realm of greater wishes. And I think James T. Kirk is with me on this as well, "I like my pain... It's what makes me.... hyoomen" :).

Originally Posted by Tywyll

I don't think lightning bolt should be able to dissolve enchantments. That seems way too powerful.

As the book says at the end of Destruction of Magic Items, you can make items immune to lightning, so that really just adds a surcharge for durability (higher price and fewer magic effects), especially since missile spells are limited to 3 dice now (the text for Rods says you can use them to produce 20-die lightning bolts but I think as GM I'd still limit it to 3-dice at a time). I kind of like the surcharge idea because it means that durable magic items are limited to PCs who have been around a longer time.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Tywyll

Have you also removed regeneration? Because its a spell a starting character could have. Do limbs get lost and not replaced in Cidri? Sure. Because the Wizard's Guild monopolizes their power and doesn't do charity. should a midlevel character be able to afford such a spell? I'd say yes.

Yes Regeneration is not known by the Wizards' Guild in my games, and if someone does have that power, it's going to take something much more significant (starting with finding them) than some fatigue and patience while the limb regrows.

The Wizards' Guild as written does not generally take advantage of their monopoly by charging more than their guild rates. The Legacy edition Regeneration spell just costs some fatigue, so the standard cost would be trivial (about $50, a third the list price of a 1-point healing potion . . . ) unless they break standard WG policy to gouge limbless people on prices.

Again, the players who like having easy cheap limb regrowth available can enjoy that, but I'd rather have permanent crippling injuries be a part of my game worlds.