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Old 07-12-2018, 02:32 AM   #21
David Bofinger
 
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Default Re: New Followers / Monster Followers

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Originally Posted by zot View Post
If it were Gollum, though, I don't think they would have joined. [...] Dorothy "educated the potential customers" about the Wizard and convinced them that it was actually in their own best interest to "buy into her cause".
Well, the hobbits did follow Gollum. They just didn't recognise him as their leader. It's a while since I saw Wizard of Oz but I don't think Dorothy gives the orders, does she? It's more like a band of equals.

I think the game needs some sort of talent for leadership and recruitment. But the canonical version, where you wave a magic wand and turn people into obedient groupies, is over the top. It should just make people somewhat more likely to be loyal.

My suggestion:
  • It's possible to recruit people without the talent, but harder.
  • To recruit people of your own culture you want the Lead talent.
  • To recruit foreigners you want Lead and Diplomacy.
  • To recruit monsters you want Lead and Monster Diplomacy (there might be better names than this). Monster Diplomacy has Diplomacy as a prerequisite, it also has the same impact on reaction rolls with monsters as Diplomacy does with foreigners. It's cheaper if you have Scholar.
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Old 07-12-2018, 02:45 AM   #22
JLV
 
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Default Re: New Followers / Monster Followers

You know, this actually raises an important question. We don't really have a way to "track" loyalty of NPCs to PCs in the RAW.

We have the 2D reaction system, but that doesn't discuss anything other than initial reactions, for the most part.

If memory serves, Guy McLimore had some kind of loyalty mechanism in GrailQuest, though it was pretty basic, as I remember it (it's late, and I'm too lazy to drag out GrailQuest at this point to try and nail it down).

Maybe this is an area that needs a little love? It doesn't have to be terribly complex, but some kind of sense of how loyal people are to their bosses (whether for pay, or out of that kind of "new followers" dedication that zot is describing) would probably be a helpful mechanic for both players and the GM.
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Old 07-12-2018, 02:51 AM   #23
zot
 
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Default Re: New Followers / Monster Followers

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Originally Posted by JLV View Post
You know, this actually raises an important question. We don't really have a way to "track" loyalty of NPCs to PCs in the RAW.

We have the 2D reaction system, but that doesn't discuss anything other than initial reactions, for the most part.

If memory serves, Guy McLimore had some kind of loyalty mechanism in GrailQuest, though it was pretty basic, as I remember it (it's late, and I'm too lazy to drag out GrailQuest at this point to try and nail it down).

Maybe this is an area that needs a little love? It doesn't have to be terribly complex, but some kind of sense of how loyal people are to their bosses (whether for pay, or out of that kind of "new followers" dedication that zot is describing) would probably be a helpful mechanic for both players and the GM.
Steve seems to have settled on rules for contests now so I think you could just do periodic contests.

I do think this would be another good application of 3/M instead of using ST, DX, or IQ though. I like that for social, will power, and courage things (and probably others). I'm calling it a "life experience and general capabilities" roll, now.
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Old 07-12-2018, 03:00 AM   #24
JLV
 
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Default Re: New Followers / Monster Followers

Yeah, I suppose contest rules would work -- as long as you had some baseline to roll against in the contest (IQ vs IQ?). Not entirely sure if that would be the best way to go, though.

Your system seems like it could work, though I'm currently finding myself "resisting" it because you've designed for effect instead of coming up with something that simulates "nature." But that's just my puritan rules soul talking, and really I can't find any reason to object to your system other than my personal prejudice against DFE type mechanisms... ;-)
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Old 07-12-2018, 03:10 AM   #25
zot
 
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Default Re: New Followers / Monster Followers

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Originally Posted by JLV View Post
Yeah, I suppose contest rules would work -- as long as you had some baseline to roll against in the contest (IQ vs IQ?). Not entirely sure if that would be the best way to go, though.

Your system seems like it could work, though I'm currently finding myself "resisting" it because you've designed for effect instead of coming up with something that simulates "nature." But that's just my puritan rules soul talking, and really I can't find any reason to object to your system other than my personal prejudice against DFE type mechanisms... ;-)
I'd use M vs M because IQ doesn't fit well at all IMHO. Plus, wizards shouldn't be the masters of the social realm -- most high intensity super-geeks don't have the time or interest to hone their social skills; the stereotype is that they're controlling an insensitive and I've seen it in action (and I've been the guilty one at times).
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Old 07-12-2018, 03:15 AM   #26
Rick_Smith
 
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Default New Followers becomes Leadership!?!

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Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
Well, the hobbits did follow Gollum. They just didn't recognise him as their leader. It's a while since I saw Wizard of Oz but I don't think Dorothy gives the orders, does she? It's more like a band of equals.
She was clearly the dominate personality.

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Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
I think the game needs some sort of talent for leadership and recruitment. ...
Hi David, everyone.
In the discussion on how to track loyalty, I think that this is a place were we don't want rules, but leave it up the the GM. As a GM, keeping track of how NPC's feel about the PC's is my constant and continuing job.

Your idea above of replacing the New Followers talent with a Leadership talent, I think is a good one. An expensive, powerful talent that helps people take leadership roles would be useful for TFT.

Anyone want to take a crack at how a leadership talent should be worded? It should not be the Jedi mind control powers of New Followers, obviously.

Thinking about it, the main advantage of a leader is that he or she stops the bickering and politicking of a large group. This might be by force of personality, giving credit where it is due, supporting and helping others, keeping calm under pressure, and hopefully coming up with good plans. Charisma is not a requirement, but if the leader does not have Charisma, he or she rubs people the wrong way and comes off as an autocrat. The talent would allow a character to efficiently command a group of NPC's, speed up communication and debate, and make it easier for a plan to be agreed on. If the leader is in a position of authority then it speeds up how quickly plans are communicated, and adjusts the enthusiasm of the NPC's towards the plan.

The other side of Leadership is that a good leader is more likely to notice subtle clues that a person in their group is unhappy or has reservations about a plan.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 07-12-2018, 03:47 AM   #27
Jim Kane
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Default Re: New Followers / Monster Followers

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I'm not entirely sure that's a valid consideration. If I recall correctly, each of the "new followers" she acquired went along with her for their own reasons (and benefit); the Cowardly Lion wanted courage, the Scarecrow wanted brains, and the Tin Man wanted a heart. That sounds to me more like gathering quest companions (additional PCs) who accompany someone who tells them where they can find a quest object (in this case, the Wizard of Oz) who can fulfill their desires, not the gathering of subordinates totally and exclusively dedicated to her cause.
Well that's partially true. If you re-read the story (or watch the film), I believe you will find the real goal of the 3 companions - and they all state it at least once - is that they "must help Dorothy get home."

So while it is true, each companion is initially motivated by the promise of receiving a direct benefit to themselves. their overriding character motivation is in aiding Dorothy in getting home - as evidenced by the fact that they aren't really all that interested in their personal rewards at the end - and they fight fiercely and loyally for her in achieving her goal.

... And, fighting the foot soldiers of the Wicked Witch (the Winkie Guard) and the the Flying Monkeys... hmmm, Flying Monkeys... how very TFT!

ADDENDUM - Regarding "The Leader", if you review the scene with Scarecrow, he empathically states the he "will not try to manage things" as he has no brain, and begs Dorothy's permission to let him *follow her*, as he asks on his knees: "Won't you take me with you?".

So, I'd say the Scarecrow's speech alone convicts the secondaries as "followers", not equals.

So, if SJ really wants to chew on a reason *not* to delete New Followers and Monster Followers... I would simply say: Please consider the mechanics behind the adventure of Dorothy and her followers in L. Frank Baum's:The Wonderful Wizard of Oz.

Also, *in the book*, the Wicked Witch of the West sends out to attack Dorothy and party, her own Monster Followers: packs of wolves, eye-pecking crows, and swarms of bees; all under her leadership - in addition to the Winkie Gaurd and the Winged Monkeys; as seen in the film version.

A "Fantasy Trip" adventure I wish I had authored.

JK

Last edited by Jim Kane; 07-12-2018 at 04:30 AM. Reason: Addendum
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Old 07-12-2018, 05:56 AM   #28
pyratejohn
 
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Default Re: New Followers / Monster Followers

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Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Unless I see a good argument, I think I should delete these as mostly bogus and rarely used, devote the space to new and better Stuff, and let attempts to recruit the GM's characters be handled by the GM with a free hand. Any comments?
I'd hate to see them go, because I believe followers are cool. However, in all of my years of gaming there was only one game (an AD&D2 campaign in the '90s) where any player ever bothered with followers, so if these two go there would be more room for... the Howitzer talent and a line for it, or Ballista, in the weapons table. ;)

Also, as GM I'm always throwing NPCs into the mix. Many of these are effectively followers, to an extent, even if not under the direct control of a PC.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:49 AM   #29
Rick_Smith
 
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Default Re: New Followers / Monster Followers

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
...
So, if SJ really wants to chew on a reason *not* to delete New Followers and Monster Followers... I would simply say: Please consider the mechanics behind the adventure of Dorothy and her followers in L. Frank Baum's:The Wonderful Wizard of Oz. ...
Hi Jim,
I would love to see a good leadership talent for TFT, but the Jedi mind trick in the New Follower's talent is not it, in my opinion. If I have Charisma, 'make friends' with someone, and then I have to make a 4vsIQ. Then they are my follower.

They get no saving throw, there is no adjustment based on if they are a spear carrier, a captain of the guard, or a major NPC. No modifier on how long they have known me. No adjustment based on if our goals or principles are aligned. Nothing.

I wanted to keep New Followers and Monster Followers, and I wrote up a couple pages of rules, guidelines, and advice so they can work in my campaign (sharply limited). But, really the talents are not needed.

***
I had a GURPS Space campaign, and the players were fighting the Virr, an evil alien race which was manipulating things from the background. The Virr's local pawn was an NPC, "Mr B", which ran Black Diamond Enterprises, a mega-corporation. The players played well, gained a fair bit of wealth and personal power, and consistently treated others fairly and selflessly helped others, even when it went against their selfish interests.

They also published everything they learned (which cost them a LOT of money). Mr B, frustrated because he couldn't make mud stick to them and was starting to really hate them, began to figure out, that he was being financed and manipulated by the Virr. Because of the PC's it was now pretty obvious that the Virr were real and active.

Mr B, did some soul searching. Then he contacted the players, confessed some nasty deeds, and told them about his Virr connections. They forgave him and recruited him.

I had never seen anything like it. My players had managed to get an enemy boss to defect to their side. And it happened without them having to make a 4vsIQ roll.

The campaign ended soon with a gigantic victory for the PC's.

***

My point is that even without New Followers, Dorothy can gain NPC allies if she treats them well, and promises to help them meet their goals. And Big Bad Guys can have all the flying monkeys they want, with out Monster Followers. The GM just has to think of some reasons why they want to stay.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:49 AM   #30
philreed
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Default Re: New Followers / Monster Followers

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Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Unless I see a good argument, I think I should delete these as mostly bogus and rarely used, devote the space to new and better Stuff, and let attempts to recruit the GM's characters be handled by the GM with a free hand. Any comments?
Unnecessary to the core rules of the game.

Though the rules _could_ prove useful for the characters project as it would provide another use for those new components . . .
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