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Old 07-17-2018, 10:23 AM   #51
GhengisRexx
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Default Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions

My copies of TFT, Melee, Wizard and the advanced versions are long gone, but.... I loved the interplay between images, summonings and illusions. They are a completely unique concept to the TFT family. More importantly, I distinctly recall an example in the rules stating that the damage from illusions was partially caused by the victims belief in the reality of the illusion. And the example described a situation where if an illusionary bear mauled a person in mail, there would be a corpse, clawed and chewed up, in INTACT armor. This solves many of the interaction questions raised earlier, and does out some limitations on illusions.
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Old 08-28-2018, 10:00 AM   #52
BillSeurer
 
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Default Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions

We played several TFT campaigns for many years and illusions were a HUGE problem.

They were way cheaper to do than the corresponding Summon spells, lasted way longer, and worked just as well in practice if not better. "But they can be disbelieved!" Sure, they CAN be disbelieved but the average Joe fighter has a much less than 50-50 chance of doing it (nearly all designed fighters were IQ 9 or less IIRC) and if the illusionist is smart (making the illusions look like real, random people) there's no reason why they would even TRY to disbelieve.
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Old 08-29-2018, 01:27 PM   #53
Anomylous
 
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Default Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions

Quote:
If Schrodinger's cat used the illusion of a litter box, would you find a puddle in the morning?
I'd argue that yes, you would. (great quote btw!)

There are two fundamental problems with the Illusion spell, as written and as I see it:

1) It's overpowered.

2) It's somewhat poorly defined in its abilities, beyond the very basic and common applications.

In order to fix these problems, I'd expand on the concept of an Illusion itself being "borrowed reality", to say that all the effects it has on the world are also "borrowed reality", with the exception of effects it has on a thing's location. Justify the location thing with whatever arcanobabble (another great word!) you want...it's just so the GM avoids having to keep track of paradoxes that would make Schrodinger's head asplode.

The biggest game effect would be that all damage inflicted by an Illusion vanishes when the Illusion does – or, if you didn't want to nerf it quite THAT much, you could say that the damage turns into fatigue instead, and that's probably how I would play it. But, and here's where the second exception comes into play, if it did enough damage to kill you, then you stay dead.*

So, to go down a list of other examples mentioned in this thread:

- The fighter mauled by an illusory bear would be found dead, with no mark on his armor or on his body (but he's still dead).

- An illusory wall can and does bounce rocks, arrows, etc.. A vase shattered against it would later be found, whole and undamaged, resting roughly in the middle of where the pile of shards landed. An Explosive Gem likewise - and any damage done by the explosion would vanish along with the wall.

- Figures can cross an illusory bridge and find themselves safely on the other side after the illusion ends – but were I GM'ing, I'd definitely force a disbelief check when they stepped onto it, if they knew it was an illusion, and I'd give the casting wizard a *bonus* to that roll! Same if characters were taking cover from arrow fire behind an illusory wall, etc.

- The illusory cover on the keg of gunpowder would hold up the torch and no explosion would occur... so long as the illusion remained intact. If anyone in the vicinity knew that cover was an illusion, though, I'd force a Disbelief check, since now their safety suddenly depends on the reality of a thing which they know isn't actually real...

- Personally, I wouldn't allow the use of Illusion as a substitute for Glamor, or for the new spell Summon Scout – a matter of interpretation, but it seems logical that if wizards could reliably use Illusion to perform the function of Glamor, then Glamor would have no reason to exist as a separate spell.

To those who might argue that this nerfs the spell to uselessness, I would point out that Illusions can still incapacitate and even kill, pin down and engage opponents, hide you and your allies, and generally create all manner of distractions and diversions. Under these rules, most wizards would probably still take Illusion if given the choice...but maybe they won't be considered quite as foolish if they choose something else instead.

*There's plenty of room to argue that figures slain by an Illusion would be much easier to Revive after the illusion vanishes, since their bodies are now (relatively) undamaged and the spell doesn't have to do nearly as much. Personally, I might even give the recently-dead figure's spirit an IQ roll to return to the body on its own...
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Old 08-29-2018, 02:10 PM   #54
RobW
 
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Default Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions

Two interpretations of illusions.

Interpretation 1. Illusions exist solely in the minds of those experiencing them. An illusion in this sense is like a shared hallucination.

Because the illusion exists only in subjective experience, not objective reality, its physical effects are limited. For example, since the illusion controls the mind, and the mind controls the body, an illusion could damage the body. But an illusory bridge could not support weight. It seems consistent to say that an illusion allows the mind to rationalise events post-hoc. For example, when I step onto an illusory bridge, in reality I fall through straight away, but what I experience is something that maintains the illusion of the bridge's existence AND my falling, eg a gust of wind pushing me off.

Interpretation 2. The illusion is psychic energy converted to matter, a true physical object for the duration of its existence, with all that entails. Observers can therefore walk on illusory bridges and float on illusory rafts, as long as no one disrupts the psychic force. Illusory cats leave a nasty litter box after they're gone, and illusory barrel lids, as long as they last, can protect from torches.

For decades I assumed (1), but now I think (2) is more the intention. It's also a lot simpler concept, and so easier to work out as a GM and player what should happen.

Last edited by RobW; 08-29-2018 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 08-29-2018, 03:46 PM   #55
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Default Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobW View Post
Two interpretations of illusions.

Interpretation 1. Illusions exist solely in the minds of those experiencing them. An illusion in this sense is like a shared hallucination.

Because the illusion exists only in subjective experience, not objective reality, its physical effects are limited. For example, since the illusion controls the mind, and the mind controls the body, an illusion could damage the body. But an illusory bridge could not support weight. It seems consistent to say that an illusion allows the mind to rationalise events post-hoc. For example, when I step onto an illusory bridge, in reality I fall through straight away, but what I experience is something that maintains the illusion of the bridge's existence AND my falling, eg a gust of wind pushing me off.

Interpretation 2. The illusion is psychic energy converted to matter, a true physical object for the duration of its existence, with all that entails. Observers can therefore walk on illusory bridges and float on illusory rafts, as long as no one disrupts the psychic force. Illusory cats leave a nasty litter box after they're gone, and illusory barrel lids, as long as they last, can protect from torches.

For decades I assumed (1), but now I think (2) is more the intention. It's also a lot simpler concept, and so easier to work out as a GM and player what should happen.
I've used "Images are #1, Illusions are #2"...
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Old 08-29-2018, 03:47 PM   #56
Rick_Smith
 
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Default Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anomylous View Post
...

There are two fundamental problems with the Illusion spell, as written and as I see it:

1) It's overpowered.

2) It's somewhat poorly defined in its abilities, beyond the very basic and common applications. ...
I agree with both these points. The large number of special rules for Illusion support your contention. (e.g. elemental Illusions are too powerful so they don't work, demon illusions are too powerful so 1/6 chance a real demon takes offense for some reason, appears in our dimension somehow, and attacks you.)

My solution was to split up Illusions into two classes (Illusions and Phantasmals), and carefully define what each could do.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 09-06-2018, 08:01 AM   #57
JohnPaulB
 
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Default Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions Images

I was going through my old Space Gamer mags and reread Issue #25, Martin Halbert's article Everyday Life in The Fantasy Trip.

I was blown away by a comment he made in it. He said that any below average IQ wizard that had Image spell could whip out a Mona Lisa that was "indistinguishable from the original, except it would be destroyed by touch. Anyone knowing the image spell can laugh at the concept of cameras."

Wow! What this means is that you could
  • "Project" a painting from your memory onto a wall,
  • "Playback" a conversation you had,
  • "Emanate" the smell of flowers in springtime.

After seeing the monster terrorize the neighborhood, instead of trying to describe it in words, you can "show" the investigator what happened.


It'll be as accurate as your capability, barring faulty memory. And you can do this for 1 minute (or longer if you continue it). And as I recall, Images can't be disbelieved, so it can be as unreal as it needs to be. They aren't fighting it. However, it should be entertaining or they will throw rotten tomatoes at it (touch it), it'll be gone.

You can be a 4D videocamera for espionage, entertainment, research.

The sky's the limit ... er, until your drop from exhaustion.

Some other ideas about Images:
And since smell highly influences taste, you could almost have someone taste butterscotch.
In a dark room, you could create an image of a torch on the wall and illuminate it.
Can't see around the corner? Create an image of a mirror on the other side.
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Last edited by JohnPaulB; 09-06-2018 at 08:20 AM. Reason: expanding on the concept
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Old 09-06-2018, 08:31 AM   #58
BillSeurer
 
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Default Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions Images

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnPaulB View Post
After seeing the monster terrorize the neighborhood, instead of trying to describe it in words, you can "show" the investigator what happened.

It'll be as accurate as your capability, barring faulty memory...
OK, stop right there. Research has shown that people are TERRIBLE about remembering almost everything. Just search online for "eyewitness experiment". So if there were five wizards who saw the event they'd probably "play back" five totally different versions.
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Old 09-06-2018, 09:00 AM   #59
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions

A common rule in RPGs for creating things that are useful and/or beautiful with magic is that you can only do so as well as your own skill allows, as if you were making it without magic. Not that TFT has skills, exactly, but I'd expect some points burned on photographic memory as well as professional/crafting Talents invented as needed, to produce paintings, movies, accurate records, reproducing the enemy codebook you glanced at, etc.
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Old 09-06-2018, 09:22 PM   #60
JohnPaulB
 
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Default Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions Images

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillSeurer View Post
OK, stop right there. Research has shown that people are TERRIBLE about remembering almost everything. Just search online for "eyewitness experiment". So if there were five wizards who saw the event they'd probably "play back" five totally different versions.
Kinda like movies made from the same book. Totally different versions.

I had your reference in mind when I said "barring faulty memory." I think that if the wizard went in knowing that his data could be bias, that emotions might skew his view, he could comment on that after the "show."
Or get the 4 other wizards together and show their "films" and see how close they get. ;)
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