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Old 12-24-2019, 09:11 AM   #11
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Charging and Trampling vs. Pole Weapons

I would say a set pole weapon is the only thing that gets to deliver an attack out of order, i.e., during movement phase. Part of my reasoning is that this is that this weapon system places rigid restrictions on the combatant's own movement, so there is some give and take involved, which maintains the intent that the system should not have any obvious 'hacks' that are always better than every other build/gear/tactic.
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Old 12-24-2019, 09:15 AM   #12
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Charging and Trampling vs. Pole Weapons

In which case any jabbable pole weapon can be set against entering an adjacent hex. (2 and half yards = 7.5 feet) Or you can hold the weapon up and jab another hex.
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Old 12-24-2019, 10:56 AM   #13
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Charging and Trampling vs. Pole Weapons

I wonder what people are imagining when they say "set pole weapon". Are they thinking that the bottom end is stuck in the ground?

My imagination, based on pole-weapons being longer than most others and having sharp tips, and the rules that say they get first attack even after moving 1/2 MA, is that they never set the end on the ground except maybe in a static pike formation against frontal cavalry attack.

If a pole weapon actually were securely stuck into the ground, I'd think that could call for some additional rules making them even better at stopping things, but also not so easy to change facing and re-stick them in the ground solidly. I don't think that's what's meant by the +2 DX bonus for not moving and receiving a foe moving adjacent from non-adjacent, because I have a very hard time imagining it would work to set a spear or halberd in the ground and really use it more effectively against someone on foot with a hand weapon, compared to keeping it in both hands not stuck in the ground.

Seems to me that for regular pole weapons, the length, and the ability to attack targets two hexes away with a jab, also implies that figures with shorter weapons coming to attack them would be risking getting stabbed first, and at some advantage given the attempted movement towards the figure holding a long pointy object (i.e. the polearm damage bonus).
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Old 12-24-2019, 11:24 AM   #14
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Default Re: Charging and Trampling vs. Pole Weapons

Spears (and other pointy polearms) tend to have spikes to place in the ground at the butt end.

https://wallacelive.wallacecollectio...ype=detailView

Note that to jab eight feet away you really do need to hold near the butt end and extend your arms.
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Old 12-24-2019, 11:38 AM   #15
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: Charging and Trampling vs. Pole Weapons

The straight-line distance from the center of your hex to the center of the neighboring hex is only 4'. And who's to say you can't plant it at your feet near the hex edge. The only important thing is that it be longer than a non-pole weapon, which is almost always true (an exception being a great sword vs. something short like a javelin or nagimaki). Anyway, in a rules sense, all pole weapons except the mounted lance can be set, and all set pole weapons reach into the neighboring hex (or further for the pike), and get initiative on non pole weapons on a charge. So, there is not much point in arguing the case based on historical weapon lengths unless you want to undo all those core properties of pole weapons.
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Old 12-24-2019, 02:26 PM   #16
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Charging and Trampling vs. Pole Weapons

The TFT rules only talk about setting Pikes into the ground, and incurs the penalty that only certain limited hexes can be attacked when it's set that way.

I'm just curious how many people imagine other pole weapons being used that way too (since I've never thought that).
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Old 12-24-2019, 02:35 PM   #17
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Charging and Trampling vs. Pole Weapons

Rifle butts placed on the ground to resist a cavalry charge:
https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/20...13-619/396383/

I suspect that a spear wielder needs to kneel to pull this off.
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Old 12-24-2019, 03:04 PM   #18
FireHorse
 
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Default Re: Charging and Trampling vs. Pole Weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Rifle butts placed on the ground to resist a cavalry charge:
https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/20...13-619/396383/

I suspect that a spear wielder needs to kneel to pull this off.
I think you are right. The shorter the weapon, the steeper the upward angle from butt to head, on a line drawn through the wielder's hand. A 6 foot spear, grounded by a standing human spearman, would be so upright as to be useless against anything except a giant falling on top of him.
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Old 12-24-2019, 03:07 PM   #19
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Charging and Trampling vs. Pole Weapons

That's against a cavalry charge. Gut the horse and be harder to hit with a saber.

I don't see that being very useful, and certainly not being necessary to get pole weapon advantages, in melee combat with foes on foot.

A cavalry formation charging a line has to either stop or run into that line. A skirmisher on foot with a sword will see an opponent kneeling with his weapon stuck in the dirt in one spot... that doesn't look advantageous to me, compared to standing with the polearm ready and not stuck in the ground.

Here's an example of spear sparring. Imagine if one of these two were kneeling with their spear stuck in the ground. Seems clear to me that it would mainly make them a sitting duck.

Here's another example, of groups fighting with swords and spears. Lots of Waiting For An Opening and two-hex jabs, and they're playing for touches so not going to really drive a shaft into anyone, but I think it's clear the essential need to be mobile and not have your spear's end stuck in the dirt.

And here is a sword/buckler versus spear example, again showing Waiting For An Opening, reluctance to run up into a spear, two-hex jabs and the general dominance of using a spear due to reach. Again, mobility of the spear is clearly a vital element, as is keeping its length between the wielder and the foe. The swordsman stops when advancing if/when the spear comes down such that if he kept going, he'd be running up the spear. I didn't ever notice the butt of the spear set into the ground. I did see the point set against the ground, but just as a resting place from which to lift it up and strike. Swordsman tries (and occasionally succeeds) to get his shield and sword to bind and/or knock the spear aside so he can run past it and strike (I would call that a Defend during the turn the charge attack defense, followed by an attack, in TFT).

Last edited by Skarg; 12-24-2019 at 03:30 PM.
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